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yogyog
17-May-08, 10:22
Ok, I think we all know that Blender is amazing, but could always be better. I think what Blender could really do with is more presets.

Preset materials,
Preset softbody settings,
Preset particle settings,
Preset fluid settings.

And they should all be packaged with Blender. Or at least easy enough to find. Like a large link on blender.org about "download the Blender preset pack" or something.

And there should be a similar link to a collection of pre-rigged characters.

I've no idea how much work is involved in this, so I'm basically just going "wouldn't it be cool if"

egan
17-May-08, 10:26
Seems like a fairly good idea, but it would be us making the presets, as the devs most certainly don't have time.

It shouldn't come with Blender, but separately (that way we keep the small download size).

After 2.50, this could be pretty interesting, as you could save like a preset file for say, soft bodies (python script would suffice), and load it directly from the soft body panels. Adding a load settings button would do.

And yes, you can already append many things. Not many physics settings though.

PapaSmurf
17-May-08, 10:55
well, for the materials there are already a hundred or so, accessed via append->matlib>pick the name

Fluids are there too - oil, water.

how bout you come up with some softbody settings? Particles I wouldnt touch until 2.46

Orinoco
17-May-08, 11:55
As PapaSmurph points out, Blender already has presets. It's just that they are done by third parties, there are about a dozen different ways to incorportate them into a Blender scene, and no one has an "official" default set of them.

It would be a good idea if there were some semi-official download (I agree, it should not be part of the basic Blender download) that gave people a set of presets that they could easily add to their models.

For example:
one glass material
one metallic material
one tilable cloth texture image
one alpha mapped leaf billboard
one semi-transparent or translucent material
one simple rigged mechanical model (a piston, for example, or a hinged door or sliding window)
one simple rigged organic model (a cartoon mouse or frog)
one simple architectural model (small detached house or two room flat)
one chair model
one tree model
one three point lamp set up
and so on...

The idea is to put together a set of items that can be used immediately and added to as needed from other repositories or blend files. I'm pretty sure all these things have been made and offered to the community at some point, the real challenge is picking only one to include in the basic preset library, and structuring the library itself, so people would find it fairly simple to download new presets and include them in their personal preset library.

This would not be a developer project at all, since the software and models already exist. It would be up to us users and artists to hammer out what would be the best beginning set of things to include in the package.

Once done and documented, I'm sure some semi-official blender site (maybe graphicall? or Blender Newbies?) would be delighted to host it, or at least put up some torrent files, if we go overboard and try to include everything including the kitchen sink (I think Max has a preset for that, btw :evilgrin:).

I suggest a criteria for inclusion that the new item be sufficiently different from something already in the set that a new user couldn't easily modify something already there. For example, if we put in green glass, no need to add blue glass, red glass, brown glass, etc, since our hypothetical reasonable new user could figure out what needed to be changed to hack the color. We put in one chair, but don't add an end table, or a sofa, or a china cabinet, since our reasonable new user can figure out that they are simply differently shaped meshes. And so on.

Sound reasonable? Let the hammering out begin! :D

blndr08
17-May-08, 13:09
the beautiful thing about blender is you can create your own presets :)

Orinoco
17-May-08, 15:21
well, for the materials there are already a hundred or so, accessed via append->matlib>pick the name

OK, so I tried this. File>>Append>> but then I didn't see anything called matlib. Hmm. I navigated to Blender Foundation\Blender, but didn't see anything called matlib there, either.

Now, this isn't snark, it's what a new user would go through trying to find the presets, not realizing that, as blndr08 says, you can create your own presets. Actually, you must create your own presets, if you want them, and the material libraries, and decide where to put them, and so on and so forth.

Here's another suggestion, and this one would need someone to program it:

Set up an option in the file menu called 'Append or Link Presets' which opens a file browser window set to some specific folder, which defaults to, say 'Program Files\Blender Foundation\Blender\Presets' but which could be changed in User Preferences>>File Paths.

This would be similar to the set location for python scripts. Then we could tell new users, if they want preset libraries, to download them and put them in the "Preset" folder.

AdamTM
17-May-08, 18:13
good idea to make for example an official material library .zip

but making it a preset (i assume you would want to pick a material RIGHT AWAY from the add material dropdown) would be rather bad idea, since all the preset materials would clutter up every file you work with.

blender is a "hard to learn - hard to master" program (+/- my IQ)
it was never designed to be like point-click-render (windows movie maker style)

its a powerfull tool in the right hands, why bloat it with presets if you NEED to know what you are doing in the first place to get something done?

its not Word, you cant treat it like a program for the "masses", no paperclip will tell you how to make a new mesh/material/render.

add new functions? -yes
make them more intuitive? -yes
add a material library? -yes
add out of control presets/templates? -no

just my opinion tho

ps: i totally see where you are comming from tho, my point is that presets/templates dont make you learn the program. it makes it easier to do "something" but much harder to understand the basics.
Once you have your preset tree with the preset wood material, what do you do? press F12 and thats it, but you didnt do anything by yourself except for placing it on the scene.
I cursed belnder to hell for the first 3 days till i understood how to rotate an object in it, but after that i went smoother and smoother to understand the aspects of the program.

At my school we use some program called MODO (which is the bullcrap program of the century for 3D), the program is so easy to use when you use the presets, but once i wanted to go outside of that its like trying to grind diamonds with your teeth. My teacher doesent even know where to make caustics, fluids, particles, hair, etc. He just uses the presets and tweaks them. but nobody bothers in making his own shader/material since every "basic" need is satisfied.

Orinoco
17-May-08, 19:07
(i assume you would want to pick a material RIGHT AWAY from the add material dropdown)
That's an incorrect assumption. I would want the materials, and not all materials, just a sample of each unique type of material, available in a standard place, just as python scripts are available in a standard place. There is no way I would want to bloat up my default blender with a material suite. That's what append and link are for.

I'm sorry your computer graphics teacher doesn't know the advanced features of the program you're using to learn CG. It can be worthwhile to get some immediate satisfaction by quickly doing something simple, but there must be ways for students who want to move on to advanced work to do so.

I'm not sure I agree that one must learn everything in order to do anything, which is the reductio ad absurdum of your line of reasoning. In the commercial CG world, people specialize. We have an animation class going right now where the participants don't even need to know how to model a ball. I'm sure they all do know, it is, after all, a primitive shape on the add mesh menu, but my point is, to learn animation, they don't need to know modeling. Someone else does it.

My point is, if someone wants to use premade materials, objects, meshes, armatures, or whatever, that there is a standard place to put these things, where Blender can find them. And that samples of various individual items be placed in a beginner "kit" of pre-made stuff, so that someone who wants to do something quickly can do so.

Meta-Androcto
17-May-08, 19:20
well it's not just presets, it's how to implement them.
i hope DbBlender gets into 2.5.
it should be possible then to set up databases/library's/presets more easily.
A proper working Library script should also appear around 2.5ish also.
So there is hope that the presets dream will become a reality.

The thing to remember is Blender is about to have it's internal structure reorganized.
Once this is done, there should be more accessibility to add preset library's.


Preset materials, > already possible. just not written.
Preset softbody settings, > would be good.
Preset particle settings, > would be good.
Preset fluid settings.v> would be good.
Although already there are the Blender Test files that have many preset or test settings covering much of Blenders functionality.

And they should all be packaged with Blender. Or at least easy enough to find. Like a large link on blender.org about "download the Blender preset pack" or something.
> i am working on a preset pack for scripts, so that will be a start...

And there should be a similar link to a collection of pre-rigged characters.
>this will be possible also, i may write/update a wiki page for that soon,
my worldwide search for quality rigs has netted about 60 rigs covering several categories.

one glass material
one metallic material
one tilable cloth texture image
one alpha mapped leaf billboard
one semi-transparent or translucent material
>not hard to implement as a script now. in 2.50 buttons should be able to be added.
already if you use yaf(a)ray/yafray or the kerkythea build there are some "factory presets"

one simple rigged mechanical model (a piston, for example, or a hinged door or sliding window)
>possible
one simple rigged organic model (a cartoon mouse or frog)
>possible
one simple architectural model (small detached house or two room flat)
>possible
one chair model
>lol, DbBlender sounds good now doesn't it.
one tree model
> Only one? already i have plenty.
one three point lamp set up
>Studio set ups as a scenes would be better.

Much of the above can be done or is already possible with scripts.

What is needed is something similar to the old Blender Library Script.
with luck it will be rewritten for the 2.50 python api.
rewriting it now only to have it broken again in the new api is wasteful time management.
I do have high hopes that a MySql database (DbBlender) will be implemented.
then users will be able to set up & store large collections of models/settings stored either online or as a local db.

one point to make is how big do you want Blender download to be?
once i add all my presets & mods to Blender install, it blows out to 80 meg!
lol, thats without even adding any .blends to the directory.

so at the end of the day, a Library or Database script/function is what is needed.
with external files available for download.

Radscientist
17-May-08, 19:42
I think having preset would be great for beginners like myself who would want to focus on a particular aspect of the program rather than worrying about all aspects like meshes when you just want to learn how to make good materials.

BlueSpider
18-May-08, 00:59
Ok, I think we all know that Blender is amazing, but could always be better. I think what Blender could really do with is more presets.

Preset materials,
Preset softbody settings,
Preset particle settings,
Preset fluid settings.

And they should all be packaged with Blender. Or at least easy enough to find. Like a large link on blender.org about "download the Blender preset pack" or something.

And there should be a similar link to a collection of pre-rigged characters.

I've no idea how much work is involved in this, so I'm basically just going "wouldn't it be cool if"
Personally Id just be happy to have a comprehensive library function for all of the above, which I think is long overdue.

mythcat
18-May-08, 01:49
well, for the materials there are already a hundred or so, accessed via append->matlib>pick the name


where is ? i have Append or Link ...

AdamTM
18-May-08, 04:41
to clarify the "append->matlib->pick a name"

he means that you set up your own folder (a material library) put in the materials you create/download and then use it over the append function.

as for now there is no "matlib" in blender, you need to create your own.

@Orinoco

my post was dedicated to the OP, sorry for the confusion.

also i never said you need to know EVERYTHING, i just said you NEED to KNOW what you do, which you dont by clicking presets.

i agree tho that presets might ease up learning of aspects of the program which you want to focus on at the time.
on the other hand, if you work with materials, you already have the sphere and suzane, you dont need much more i think for material testing.
As for meshes, a good mesh works without materials, moddeling will not be sped up or made easier by adding presets.

Softbody presets might be nice tho as would be particles, but those are advanced functions that already require a indepth look into blender.

But yes i agree to the point that blender needs a comprehensive library function, but not more.

on other news, blender needs to quit jumping directories on "open/append/import" and needs better mesh joining functions + bevel and bridge functions XD

my wishlist

ps: the confusion about presets might be of my understanding of the word. i compare it to photoshops "layerstyles" post CS, you click glow and have glow, but you dont understand why. new CS3 users dont know how to make glow without the layerstyles function.

noidtluom
18-May-08, 05:39
I would definitely support a single official en masse "preset pack" full of textures, materials (especially skin), settings, etc in maybe a 300MB download. That way we don't need to search everywhere for our resources, just one download to equip us for enough to use blender for general work for the next year or so (if not more).

PapaSmurf
18-May-08, 13:23
1. create a folder C:\blender\lib\Materials
2. go to Blender downloads and get get matlibVXX.blend, where VXX is the version.
3. in your blend file, go file-append-<navigate to matlib>-<materials>-pick what you want.
4. select your model, and in the materials pane, select the pick

blenditall
18-May-08, 19:53
I think presets integrated into Blender are a bad idea. For one, they would decrease people's knowledge of how to make materials, for example, instead of forcing them to learn the various properties of a material.
Also, there are enough online sources.

I have nothing wrong with libraries online, but I don't think having such presets integrated would be very useful or necessary. They would also increase the program size (if many models/materials/etc were added).

Edit: Check this link.

http://www.blender.org/download/resources/

I think something like this is sufficient.

kbot
18-May-08, 20:44
Cheers for your help folks. . . you answered my question too in the process.

yogyog
19-May-08, 05:57
I think presets integrated into Blender are a bad idea. For one, they would decrease people's knowledge of how to make materials, for example, instead of forcing them to learn the various properties of a material.
Also, there are enough online sources.

I disagree with this. Playing with textures from blender-materials.org has tuaght me a lot about building materials. It's good to alter existing textures with this as well. Well I surpose those ARE presets. Fantastic site, guys! keep it up! Really easy to use and profesional looking. Maybe softbody, liquid, particle and node presets should be added to this fantastic site. I have a lot of problems setting up liquid and softbodys - maybe asking for presets is lazy, but does that make it a bad idea? I reason that anything that makes it faster to create stuff on Blender is a good idea.

could those people who have made rigs post them on the blender model reposetry? Does anyone still use that?

Maybe the plan is to create blenderpresets.org based on the interface of blender-materials.org.

PapaSmurf
19-May-08, 06:07
well someone really needs to get the Library script back on its feet....It is what you guys want - a single UI where you can go to get presets, whether they are materials, textures, meshes, whatever. Also it is why I am behind the Client Repository framework being done. I was hoping that project would go toward a Library-like functionality, but it is evolving into something more complex and an interface standard. So for 2.46, a major contribution would be to get the Library script back working, with a tut on how to use it and set it up.

my 2c is that my workflow is to start with something that works and go from there. I am too old to be reinventing the wheel. So when I want glass, for example, I go into matlib and get it, and then if I don't want green, I change the green to blue. There are just fewer steps involved, and less button clicking, and a higher assurance of a good output. Most users are not daily material users, and so all making sure to click TraShadow and reduce Spec habits fall out of the braiin. So Blender would be very difficult to use without the append or link function.

Orinoco
19-May-08, 08:44
my 2c is that my workflow is to start with something that works and go from there. I am too old to be reinventing the wheel. So when I want glass, for example, I go into matlib and get it, and then if I don't want green, I change the green to blue. There are just fewer steps involved, and less button clicking, and a higher assurance of a good output. Most users are not daily material users, and so all making sure to click TraShadow and reduce Spec habits fall out of the braiin. So Blender would be very difficult to use without the append or link function.
Hear! Hear! I can't recall how many times I had to look up the details on making glass because I hadn't used it in a month or so.

PapaSmurf
19-May-08, 13:53
ok, so presets for materials is fixed. see http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Release_Notes/Notes246/Image_Browser - it is really all you need. from within the append window you can see a material preview. So that area of presets I would consider done.

pKrime
19-May-08, 14:52
am I wrong or there are both an online material repository and a script to browse it as a library? blender-materials (http://www.blender-materials.org/) is probably what he's looking for.

PapaSmurf
19-May-08, 15:09
There is no On-line self-service kind of service where you can browse within Blender on the internet for material presets and get the one you want, although you could write a script to do that. With the site you link to as well as matilib etc, you find the .blend file you want that may contain MANY material pre-sets, download the .blend file to your blender/lib/materials folder. Then within your blend file you are working on, you append or link to that material in that /lib/ folder file.

Just to confuse the issue, there is a Library script that would search out all the materials in files for you and keep track of them and where they were and like that, all running within Blender like a service desk type of application.

To make it even more confusing, there is a development effort initiated to make a client browser application that runs that interfaces at an api level to sites like the one you link to in order to dynamically get an inventory of what they have, like a storefront type of application.

AdamTM
19-May-08, 15:21
i just read through the 2.46 release features...this is the best blender version EVER.

so many things i waited for, its like xmas.

btw, an integrated online library would be "fun" tho not necessary.
on the other hand, it would make Blender so much more awesome^^

and in other news from the year 2010:

Blender now can drive your car and can make icecream XD

lordcooper
19-May-08, 16:07
So is everyone gonna debate if its a good or bad thing or is someone actually gonna you know, organise a project or something.
It's like the bloody UN in here sometimes lol

PapaSmurf
20-May-08, 19:06
do you have a point of order, lord cooper?
The chair recognizes Lord Cooper. Lord, you have the floor.

lordcooper
21-May-08, 04:07
do you have a point of order, lord cooper?
The chair recognizes Lord Cooper. Lord, you have the floor.
lol
I have no idea what that's actually meant to mean, but I guess you're asking me to?
Basically I'm extremely new to blender, and materials are my weakest point, but okay :)
All we really need is people to upload files containing models, partical setting, materials etc that they'd like to share.
I'd be fine with putting them all into one blend file and uploading somewhere, hell I'll even add anything I have that could be semi useful to someone.
Actually, I'll go start a thread now to see if anyones interested in actually doing something like this.