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  1. #16561
    Member Pixelgrapher's Avatar
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    Sobol is what I used in the example. You can test it personally if you''d like. I linked a .blend file on Dropbox.
    Last edited by Pixelgrapher; 08-Aug-17 at 23:41.
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  2. #16562
    report it on the tracker. Maybe an option can be made to get old behavior for such files.



  3. #16563
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Hey, has anyone else noticed a huge regression in denoising quality in recent builds? To test for yourself, pick a scene that you used the denoiser on and compare the results in 2.79 RC and the latest buildbot build.

    The new russian roulette tweaks are great for indoor scenes, but the denoiser is now unusable.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
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  4. #16564
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    Haven't noticed any issue with the denoiser, it actually handled the noise on the door a bit better.
    But I just don't get any reflections in reflections with 2.79, whatever glossy bounce maximum I use.
    278.jpg279.jpg



  5. #16565
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chafouin View Post
    Haven't noticed any issue with the denoiser, it actually handled the noise on the door a bit better.
    But I just don't get any reflections in reflections with 2.79, whatever glossy bounce maximum I use.
    Could be another regression, report it to the tracker and clearly specify if you're using CPU, OpenCL, or CUDA rendering.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  6. #16566
    Member YAFU's Avatar
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    Is anyone having much better render times in BMW27.blend scene (from blenderartists thread) with latest buildbot builds?.

    Currently using hash "de3c1657132" from 2017/08/09, I get about 30 seconds less in GPU, and about a minute less in CPU compared to previous versions (compared to c6c49d90dc6 from 2017/08/02 for example).

    I would like to know which modification was the responsibility of this improvement.

    I'll try other scenes later.

    Edit:
    Ok, I think this is related to min bounces and Russian roulette termination I guess
    https://developer.blender.org/D2766
    Last edited by YAFU; 12-Aug-17 at 14:11.
    Be patient, English is not my language.



  7. #16567
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by YAFU View Post
    Ok, I think this is related to min bounces and Russian roulette termination I guess
    https://developer.blender.org/D2766
    Optimizations made to Cycles in the past year has, at first glance, had an unbelievable effect on interior scenes with more complex lighting (probability + denoising + new RR termination).

    From my experience, I estimate the combination of the three means some scenes might render up to 6 times faster than a year ago. Imagine what will happen if Jaros gets his adaptive stopping work in, some scenes might literally see the performance go to 11

    Then there's the work Lukas started on de-scrambled Sobol sampling.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  8. #16568
    Member YAFU's Avatar
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    That's right, optimizations and new features everywhere on Cycles. Do not forget OpenCL and memory usage improvements as well. Hopefully this will continue this way
    Be patient, English is not my language.



  9. #16569
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by YAFU View Post
    That's right, optimizations and new features everywhere on Cycles. Do not forget OpenCL and memory usage improvements as well. Hopefully this will continue this way
    One thing that would be nice is to have adaptive stopping and de-scrambled Sobol committed post 2.79 (on top of the new RR) and follow up with a final 'performance release' before master receives all the 2.8 stuff.

    If we can see double or triple the performance in many scenes on top of what we have as of today, it will go a long way in eliminating complaints about how Cycles is slower than the commercial products and therefore can't compete (not to mention it will encourage many BI holdouts to finally switch).
    Last edited by Ace Dragon; 12-Aug-17 at 18:22.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  10. #16570
    I think mipmapping and texture caching will make a big difference on memory use as well plus improve aliasing.



  11. #16571
    Originally Posted by jdent02 View Post
    I think mipmapping and texture caching will make a big difference on memory use as well plus improve aliasing.
    Agreed with the former, but do you ever have problems with texture aliasing? Most final Cycles renders should have enough primary samples to make aliasing a non-issue in most cases. For normal maps or other textures which can't be correctly resampled through averaging, mipmapping also causes problems (e.g. loss of detail).



  12. #16572
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
    Agreed with the former, but do you ever have problems with texture aliasing? Most final Cycles renders should have enough primary samples to make aliasing a non-issue in most cases. For normal maps or other textures which can't be correctly resampled through averaging, mipmapping also causes problems (e.g. loss of detail).
    The Arnold engine has mipmap generation at rendertime, and the major benefit from that is a massive speedup in rendertime for scenes with a lot of image textures. Large textures have been shown to really slow Cycles down, so you can get a lot of speed back if textures in the distance are shrunk (and it may not really mean loss of detail if said detail at that distance is in the sub-pixel level and can't be seen).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  13. #16573
    Originally Posted by Ace Dragon View Post
    The Arnold engine has mipmap generation at rendertime, and the major benefit from that is a massive speedup in rendertime for scenes with a lot of image textures. Large textures have been shown to really slow Cycles down, so you can get a lot of speed back if textures in the distance are shrunk (and it may not really mean loss of detail if said detail at that distance is in the sub-pixel level and can't be seen).
    The problem is that mipmaps just average the texels. That's correct for diffuse textures, but not for normal maps (and probably not for displacement maps, too). Using mipmapping for normal maps makes the material appear smoother as it should and you might miss anisotropic shading effects that are in the normal map. There are some approaches to fix it (Lean mapping, if you use the Beckman distribution, create the roughness mips according to the normal distributions, etc), but all of them aren't trivial to implement in such a flexible shading system, as cycles has.
    And a good mipmapping implementation with anistropic filtering isn't trivial. But even if you use it only for the diffuse textures, it might be worth it.



  14. #16574
    Note that anisotropic filtering is not a requirement for mipmaps. To avoid the slowdown and bias from anisotropic filtering it can be disabled while keeping memory usage about the same, so we'll see if we the (often small) noise reduction is really worth the increased render time in Cycles. The bias you get from mipmaps can indeed be problematic and is difficult to avoid in general, particularly for bump maps but also other types of textures.



  15. #16575
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Lukas Stockner has finished his Pixel Size patch (for viewport rendering) and committed it to master.
    https://lists.blender.org/pipermail/...st/099492.html

    This will be at its most useful for those with 4K resolutions, but it will provide a nice speedup for previews of complex scenes on any monitor.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  16. #16576
    Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
    Agreed with the former, but do you ever have problems with texture aliasing? Most final Cycles renders should have enough primary samples to make aliasing a non-issue in most cases. For normal maps or other textures which can't be correctly resampled through averaging, mipmapping also causes problems (e.g. loss of detail).
    Personally no, but I've heard others mention it.



  17. #16577
    Mip Mapping is still useful in a path tracer, especially for secondary rays. Attached are two renders of the same scene. A spotlight pointed at a textured plane, from which diffuse light bounces to a second plane. Note how mip mapping helps with clearing the noise in the diffuse bounce:
    mip.jpgno mip.jpg
    Last edited by skw; 15-Aug-17 at 15:29.



  18. #16578
    Obviously the texture is an extreme case, but I wanted a clear example to show that even 256 rays are not necessarily enough for antialiasing. (Note: The aliasing of the texture in direct visibility can be reduced by adjusting the pixel filter. The Blender default of Blackman-Harris, 1.5 pixels is too small for this case.)
    Last edited by skw; 15-Aug-17 at 15:36.



  19. #16579
    @skw

    That's a highly contrived case, you'll have to admit. The Nyquist limit still applies, of course.

    Anyway, there are of course benefits to mipmapping especially relating to memory/cache. Sampling at lower MIP level for indirect samples should help as well. For primary samples of e.g. "non-color data", I would welcome the ability to disable them conveniently.



  20. #16580
    Yes, this is by no means a common case that you'd typically encounter. That texture however is wonderful for verifying the correctness of a mip map implementation, as lookups at the wrong level will become very obvious.

    The main motivation for me is memory anyway - being able to render tens or hundreds of GBs of texture data in a constant sized memory cache either saves money on hardware or allows one to squeeze more geometry in a scene. And without mip mapping, texture caching in a standard path tracer just won't perform at all. It would take quite some refactoring of Cycles into a deferred shading renderer to allow for it without mip mapping. Not that I wouldn't want to do that, it's high up on my list of things to do should I ever have 3 months of spare time...



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