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  1. #201
    Donating Member Alvaro's Avatar
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    I'm quite aware that there are bills to pay when running a website. I have one. I also have a new business and a growing family to support
    Commercial business does not work exactly the same as a comunity based on free resources.

    of it is in fact an advantage.
    Oh, wait, I didn't realise Andrew wanted to buy himself a Porsche with Katolegaz donations and google ads renevue.

    Ok, let me explain with an example? under the same circumstances, shall we criticise people doing commercial work with Blender? You know, they are making big bucks from Blender developers' generous and free effort.

    If you don't have the cash to pay for the bandwidth every time someone downloads a model, do like noidtluom, and get everyone else to host the models on their sites, and just provide links.
    That does not solve the problem. You are not facing the problem. The problem will appear again in case noidtluom has to dedicate time and money to his website. Time and money that perhaps he is not always willing to dedicate.

    It is the same history repeated.

    Another thing, the BMR was only as good as the models which were posted there, and there were only a selected few which were any good to learn from.
    I agree with you, I didn't like some of the models posted, but can you make your rant less ungrateful, please? Besides, for just a "a few good models" as you say, we can use this thread, don't we?



  2. #202
    Originally Posted by Alvaro View Post
    Commercial business does not work exactly the same as a comunity based on free resources.
    No, you are right there, but having donated to a lot of "donateware" so far, here is how I see it: -

    Individuals or companies such as mine do not have a lot of money at startup to spend on all the software that they need, so they use the free software that is available, and then donate when they are able (or sometimes they have to donate to use the software commercially, depending on the licence).

    I have used "Blender", "Hekkus Sound System", "PocketFrog", "MakeHuman", "MyAlbum", "ModPlug Tracker" and "PocketHAL", and although I only started my business in July, and am still living off my savings, I have already donated to four of them. I can't, on top of that, donate to every website that I look at, I can, however, try and contribute something to a website that I find useful, which is what I had intended to do when the BMR was back up and running, and what I have done by contributing textures, images and text to other websites.

    If Mr Legaz had simply posted "I'm having a bit of trouble paying for this guys" in this post, then maybe people might have pooled in to help. Instead, we get a big rant about how everyone here is a freeloader... after they have donated all their models already, and then you joining in calling them opportunists!

    I don't see the Blender development team driving around in Jaguars, and THEY are the ones who deserve the donations first.

    And no, I'm not ungrateful to all those who donated their models... I am, in fact, VERY GRATEFUL TO ALL THOSE WHO DONATED THEIR HARD WORK TO THE BMR, and for the last couple of posts, I have been defending THEM against you and MR Legaz, who are the ungrateful ones, when you insist that no-one donated enough.

    noidtluom: I'll try and get something uploaded today. Good luck



  3. #203
    Donating Member Alvaro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Percival
    VERY GRATEFUL TO ALL THOSE WHO DONATED THEIR HARD WORK TO THE BMR
    The you should be grateful to Andrew and me in first place, since many models and screenshots where made by us, apart from Andrew's work to keep the site up. You didn't anwers my questions in my previous post. Andrew was entitled to raise money to maintain the BMR, as long as The BMR remained free and certain principles were respected. Period.

    You can say as long as you want we are insulting people. Personally I don't care (about your opinion, that's it)

    Originally Posted by Percival
    Blender is given free by people who have spent a lot more time and effort developing it than you have, if you were after making a buck on advertising or donations to a site, you're in the wrong community.
    Originally Posted by noidtluom
    The ads on the new BMR will generate some money, and ill make annual donations based on what comes through
    Can I ask you if you are going to criticise noidtluom for that? If you want to answer at all.

    Originally Posted by Percival
    I think it is in pretty bad taste to accuse people of being freeloaders
    Please tell me where Andrew acussed people of being freeloaders:

    Originally Posted by Andrew
    If you want to blame someone, blame yourselves. I am not the person that infringed on copyrights, I am not the person who stole models, I am not the person who did anything but try to provide a tool for the community.

    No one, not a single person, donated money in 3 years of providing resources to the Blender community. The Blender community isn't interested in donations or advertising, just free models... so all of the ad revenue for this site has come from my non-Blender content. The advertising revenue comes from my articles, not from Blender users.
    Originally Posted by Percival
    From what I can see, a lot of people that are using blender are students, teachers, others that do not have the means to buy themselves the more professional software packages
    Wrong. Besides, 3DS MAX is free too, why using Blender then?

    Originally Posted by Percival
    When they finally have some money to donate, it is natural that it goes to the Blender developers or to this site.
    Donations is not only the problem. Anyway,

    Originally Posted by Percival
    Another thing, the BMR was only as good as the models which were posted there, and there were only a selected few which were any good to learn from.
    BMR was made by blender users from Blender users. It reflected what Blender users can do. The same will happen with future repositories.

    Have a nice day



  4. #204
    Originally Posted by Alvaro View Post
    You didn't anwers my questions in my previous post. Andrew was entitled to raise money to maintain the BMR, as long as The BMR remained free and certain principles were respected. Period.

    Can I ask you if you are going to criticise noidtluom for that? If you want to answer at all.
    No, my problem is NOT that someone makes any money out of the model repository. If they make money, even millions, GOOD LUCK TO THEM... my problem is when someone says that they are DONATING something, doesn't ask for any help, then start bit**ing at the whole community, including those which had helped with his website, (see quote below) because they didn't make any money out of it.... THEN setting themselves up as a MARTYR (there are a lot of people that deserve that title who have done a lot more than set up a website that didn't work).

    Originally Posted by Alvaro View Post
    Please tell me where Andrew acussed people of being freeloaders:
    "No one, not a single person, donated money in 3 years of providing resources to the Blender community. The Blender community isn't interested in donations or advertising, just free models..." by akator - pfff

    Originally Posted by Alvaro View Post
    Wrong. Besides, 3DS MAX is free too, why using Blender then?
    Wasn't aware that 3DS MAX was free...

    Have a nice day yourself



  5. #205
    I'm very sorry that the blender model repository died, I followed the progress of this project with great enthusiasm.

    I think that a good way to create a repository for 3d models is the wiki technology. I proposed a wiki 3d models repository called WikiWorlds in the wikimedia new project proposal page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWorlds) and I started a demo of the project on http://editthis.info/wikiworlds/Main_Page. It's only a demo to see if the wiki model is suited for this, feel free to contribute or discuss the project.

    This project aims to build virtual worlds in a similar way that wikipedia uses to build an encyclopedia.

    Noidtluom sorry to start another project, but WikiWorlds has a scope that is a little different and uses another technology, but we can exchange materials since WikiWorlds will accept only free material (the set of accepted licenses will be the same of wikimedia commons) that can be redistributed. And don't stop your project, WikiWorlds at this time is only a "stub" with some potential. I hope that competition will help both projects.
    Last edited by argento; 25-Oct-06 at 13:42. Reason: WikiWorlds emphasized



  6. #206
    Member cinmay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by noidtluom View Post
    Ok there is now a new blender model repository because the old one shut down. This is the new URL: http://www.e2-productions.com/bmr

    it isnt' completely finished but should be extremely soon, in the meantime just go and register and submit any of your old models. Thanks!

    all commetns welcome
    Hello I have access to a hosting service and I was thinking if you don't mind then I could host it on my site?
    http://repository.shilpo.no/upload/

    What do you people think?
    I am just using a simple script from http://www.olate.co.uk/products/od/

    I was thinking only to allow models that are free for all to use even for commercial purposes without having to mention or contact the original author. What do you guy's think?

    btw thank you akator for all your wonderfully work and sorry that we treaded you so badly



  7. #207
    Originally Posted by cinmay View Post
    I was thinking only to allow models that are free for all to use even for commercial purposes without having to mention or contact the original author. What do you guy's think?
    It's an idea, but it is perhaps better to categorize them, or have a search facility which finds files which can be used commercially. It would be a shame to exclude those which are strictly for personal use, as there are people who genuinely want to learn from others' work.



  8. #208
    Member cinmay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Percival View Post
    It's an idea, but it is perhaps better to categorize them, or have a search facility which finds files which can be used commercially. It would be a shame to exclude those which are strictly for personal use, as there are people who genuinely want to learn from others' work.
    Good idea Percival
    I have added agreements for free and licensed downloads.

    Now I need to find some good category's



  9. #209
    ...and noidthlum's site? He has already set up the categories on his site.

    Maybe you guys should talk before running off in two different directions



  10. #210
    Member noidtluom's Avatar
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    guys guys stop arguing...
    Ok, yes you can host it on your own host but preferably host it on the BMR itself, that way, we wont get dead links all over the place.

    If somebody only wants their model for personal use they have to state so in their post.

    *edits rules*

    these are the current rules and stuff:

    http://www.e2-productions.com/bmr/index.php?showtopic=2

    (does anybody other than me think that another thread should be put up telling peopel there is a new BMR because atm only the peopel that reads this thread from beginning until almost the end knows or something)

    harum? were people arguing about my sacrifices? guys, you guys handle the models, ill handle the hosting and such, ive been quite deep in the programmers community to know exactly how these things work.
    The ThoughtScore Project - My current project
    thinkMoult.com - My blog
    WIPUP.org - a fun, open-source, easy way to share your works-in-progresses for the community! Try it out today!



  11. #211
    Member Lojimek's Avatar
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    I just signed up for the BMR but I have one suggestion. Change your template. It's way too dark and difficult to see. I know white is boring but it's bright and easy to see. Unless you changed the text to white.
    Me? I'm a Blender freak,I'm a geek,I'm a need for some Blendering,Prepare fo da Masta Noob
    My Website: lojimekworks.webs.com/



  12. #212
    Originally Posted by noidtluom View Post
    I have changed things to forward to your pages.

    BTW, the BMR logo is something I created. I just granted permission to you in a PM... but again, it should have been asked before it was used.

    What I think has been missed, and why I cannot continue with the BMR, is the massive legal problems I have encountered since June. These legal problems have been very time consuming, expensive, and extremely unpleasant. Just because I have not publicly announced these legal problems does not mean they didn't exist or that they were not serious.

    Hosting a site like the BMR is not just the costs of bandwidth and time with administration. Lawyers cost a lot of money, and since July I spent over $2000. In October more issues came up, and I just couldn't afford the legal expenses anymore because (1) I don't have any money left, and (2) the website and ads never made enough money to cover the recent legal issues.

    Perhaps people will donate to your site and help cover the costs if that situation arises.

    I wish you the best with the continuation of the BMR.



  13. #213
    Member noidtluom's Avatar
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    Ok the colours have been changed a little bit and i hope it is easier for everybody to see

    EDIT (just read andrew's post) -

    thanks! (ill talk to you more via PM)
    and for those that are concerned about financial issues, a little info:

    * those ads (by google) that show related links are very useful if you want to find out information.

    * my paypal account is dionmoult[at]gmail.com (all donations telling me its for the BMR will be saved and not used for any personal needs. if i dont need to use the BMR savings and do not run into legal issues then it will be donated to Blender3D)

    as for anybody who is thinking of making a quick buck by trying to legally mess me up, have some compassion for the blender community
    Last edited by noidtluom; 25-Oct-06 at 23:56. Reason: just read andrew's post
    The ThoughtScore Project - My current project
    thinkMoult.com - My blog
    WIPUP.org - a fun, open-source, easy way to share your works-in-progresses for the community! Try it out today!



  14. #214
    Thanks to everyone who made the BMR a success during the time I ran it. Special thanks must go to Alvaro and Obi_Ron who helped moderate the content. I appreciate the opportunity to have seen first-hand so much great work from the Blender community, along with all of the shared idealism towards artistic and educational resources.

    It was never my intention to accuse all Blender users of misbehavior, as I know there are many productive and respectable artists in this community. I hope that you will all understand my frustration with the problems and my disappointment that I cannot continue with the project.

    I look forward to seeing how the new BMR develops as well as the great work from the Blender community.

    I must ask everyone to help the new BMR surpass the problems that I encountered. If you encounter an illegitimate model, please constructively let the new mods know before things get out-of-hand. Don't let "the bad apples" create the same problems I experienced.



  15. #215
    Member noidtluom's Avatar
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    I must ask everyone to help the new BMR surpass the problems that I encountered. If you encounter an illegitimate model, please constructively let the new mods know before things get out-of-hand. Don't let "the bad apples" create the same problems I experienced.
    Agreed. I already have an active mod from my own site which has joined to help moderate the BMR, is there anybody here which wants to mod as well?

    please note, i wont just say yes, ill have to see first, i think Obi_Ron seems like a nice idea since andrew suggested him.

    Of course, if any of the blender-artists.org forum mods want to join? You'll be welcome

    (heya BigDM [thats who i mostly remember ] )
    The ThoughtScore Project - My current project
    thinkMoult.com - My blog
    WIPUP.org - a fun, open-source, easy way to share your works-in-progresses for the community! Try it out today!



  16. #216
    Member Lojimek's Avatar
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    I would like to help.

    Hey guys. Glad were know talking goods for each other. Could I be of assistance to the BMR an any way??? I would like to help the Blender Community and the people in it as much as I can.
    Me? I'm a Blender freak,I'm a geek,I'm a need for some Blendering,Prepare fo da Masta Noob
    My Website: lojimekworks.webs.com/



  17. #217
    Originally Posted by akator View Post
    It was never my intention to accuse all Blender users of misbehavior, as I know there are many productive and respectable artists in this community. I hope that you will all understand my frustration with the problems and my disappointment that I cannot continue with the project.
    Thanks, and sorry for some of the things that I said yesterday. I got a little hot headed when I thought of all the people who had donated in light of yours and Alvaro's post, and then Alvaro just started winding me up after that.

    As I said in one of my posts, you could just have said "guys, I need some help here..." and I'm sure that people would have stepped up. We never know who is behind the avatar, a professional or a student, and so don't know if they need help or not if they don't ask.

    I still don't understand though, how you landed up with legal fees... was there not a disclaimer, or could you not have just taken the model off your site when someone complained?

    Anyways, thanks for the BMR, and sorry again for some of the stuff I said yesterday.



  18. #218
    Originally Posted by Percival View Post
    Thanks, and sorry for some of the things that I said yesterday. I got a little hot headed when I thought of all the people who had donated in light of yours and Alvaro's post, and then Alvaro just started winding me up after that.
    Don't worry about it, your post was far nicer than the crap I get in my emails.

    Model "donations" were occasionally fun to look at, because I got a chance to see some of the great work from other artists. But don't be fooled... in no way did the BMR make money even before the legal problems started. Blender users believe in open source, and by percentage they don't click on ads. Less than 0.5% of Blender users clicked on ads, compared to 7% for non-Blender users.

    Alvaro was trying to help by explaining what happened. He was also defending me. I wish I had more friends like that (thanks Alvaro)

    Originally Posted by Percival View Post
    As I said in one of my posts, you could just have said "guys, I need some help here..." and I'm sure that people would have stepped up. We never know who is behind the avatar, a professional or a student, and so don't know if they need help or not if they don't ask.
    I've done that here and on my own site. After so many times of asking, it becomes pointless.

    Even if you could help, how much PHP coding are you familiar with? How do I know that I can trust you with source code and not let it slip into the hands of people with bad intentions? There is not an easy solution, and I know this because I have been doing this for years. I have already been burned many times by "asking for help" and trusting people with information and code.

    You must also realize that my existence does not revolve around the BMR. Who I am, how I make my living, how I have fun in my spare time, is not about the BMR. I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings by saying that, but I would much rather create art and 3D models than administrate things.

    Originally Posted by Percival View Post
    I still don't understand though, how you landed up with legal fees... was there not a disclaimer, or could you not have just taken the model off your site when someone complained?
    I made mistakes with the previous BMR because I did not legally protect myself from illicit uploads. That means people uploaded models from here and elsewhere that were free, and some uploaded models that they knew were not free.

    As the person hosting the website, I did not have verified permission to redistribute artwork and could not verify that I had legal permission for publication/distribution. That means anyone who saw their work on my site assumed I put it there without their permission, and even though other people uploaded the models I still did not have permission for publication/distribution.

    COPYRIGHT means only the COPYRIGHT HOLDER has permission to give rights to someone else. It doesn't matter if the model is free, under the BAL, under Creative Commons, etc. because I couldn't prove that the person who uploaded the model was the copyright holder.

    Originally Posted by Percival View Post
    Anyways, thanks for the BMR
    Sure. I really hope the new one works better, I have already PMed the legal crap I paid for to noidtluom...
    Last edited by akator; 26-Oct-06 at 03:51.



  19. #219
    Originally Posted by Alvaro View Post
    Oh, wait, I didn't realise Andrew wanted to buy himself a Porsche with Katolegaz donations and google ads renevue.
    LOL, I wish... our 1998 Honda runs OK this week...



  20. #220
    Originally Posted by cinmay View Post
    btw thank you akator for all your wonderfully work and sorry that we treaded you so badly
    Thanks, cinmay. Wow, I'm really regretting my previous "bitching" post...

    Originally Posted by cinmay View Post
    Hello I have access to a hosting service and I was thinking if you don't mind then I could host it on my site?
    Obviously, bandwidth isn't as expensive as it was when I started things with Blenderman in 2004. By the time I had to take the BMR down it was 622 MB including thumbnails. That isn't much too much, and neither is the EDIT: 7GB of bandwidth the models sometimes consumed each month. Just be aware of the requirements before trying to start one... unless you are prepared it might catch up with you

    Originally Posted by argento View Post
    I think that a good way to create a repository for 3d models is the wiki technology. I proposed a wiki 3d models repository called WikiWorlds in the wikimedia new project proposal page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiWorlds) and I started a demo of the project on http://editthis.info/wikiworlds/Main_Page. It's only a demo to see if the wiki model is suited for this, feel free to contribute or discuss the project.
    This looks interesting...
    Last edited by akator; 26-Oct-06 at 05:30.



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