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  1. #1541
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    @Ace, I tried your scene with scramble set to 0.5 for both CMJ and Sobol and as far as i can see are identical results?

    Sobol:
    Sobol.jpg

    CMJ:
    CMJ.jpg

    You sure you didnt try Dithered sobol? Its in the list but not actual in this branch, I left it out until some changes are made as blue noise dithered actually is slower for me than sobol or CMJ.

    Here's your scene again but just render as is but change from sobol to CMJ and you should get identical images. Im using GPU but your scene as standard used CPU. Maybe thats it but not tested CPU yet.

    Scene: https://mega.nz/#!0sYgxTgQ!KojhPG-aG...HcgCwMMG9Q-cz4

    Can you try again mate and see what you get



  2. #1542
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    Also, Tile size influences the denoiser outcome. i.e: smaller tiles produce smaller splotches, meaning more pronounced flickering, noticeable in animations & CPU vs GPU comparison (if AutoTileSize addon is used). To have better results higher sample count is advised.

    PS
    What is happening with other x-features (IES textures, White value...)?
    Last edited by burnin; 21-May-17 at 20:05.



  3. #1543
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    @Burnin I can add some of those things in on another build but this experimental was more aimed at denoise related stuff, Give me a list of the .diffs and ill see what i can do for you.



  4. #1544
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    3DLuver; if the de-scrambled Sobol and CMJ renders are the same then something either seems to be amiss or some code is missing.

    CMJ by default tends to be superior, so a partially de-scrambled CMJ sampling should also produce preferable results to Sobol (but instead I get the same result).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
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  5. #1545
    Member lsscpp's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SunBurn View Post
    Unfortunately this method seems too "hackish" and doesn't work for me. It takes too much time to setup and it's not versatile at all.
    In a real situation where you have to change lighting, props etc, till the clients gives his final approval you have to re-bake all the time.
    Of course it's hackish (and for that, it could be a good matter for an addon: something like "Automated fake irradiance cache")
    It takes some time to arrange, but you don't need to set up the whole scene. Mainly big surfaces, as walls, floor and ceiling. Things that often remain untouched. Also the bake (and re-bake) take a fraction of the time of the full render.
    It really pays off if you plan to make an indoor animation, like a fly/walk-through.
    Last edited by lsscpp; 22-May-17 at 03:37.
    Everything's relative. Even saying "Everything's relative".



  6. #1546
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    Originally Posted by YAFU View Post
    ...*highlight reflections*...
    Ok maybe I've got what you're sayin, but the answer remains more or less the same.
    Now I'll try to explain better how much dynamic range influences your perception.

    When you look at the sun (do it at your own risk :P), what you see is a big disk with a certain size and shape.
    Are you really sure that what you see is the true size and shape?
    Let's do the same with SLR camera with good and wide range using different exposure values and filters.
    For convenience, instead of tanking many photos, let's use a High Quality HDRI texture (many EV stops) with a visible sun.
    If you in photoshop or whatever other software decrease the exposure you'll see the sun becoming really really small.
    Why it happens? because the real size of the sun is way smaller than how we see, but its energy is so strong that our eyes, starting from a certain value of energy returns the same value.
    What does it mean? That we can't distinguish between the halo and the sun. We can't capure enough details.

    Now same principle with reflections, and to explain it to you I've made you an example:


    In a more clear way I'd use the classic images used to explain how filmic maps values.
    Default clips at 1 scene referred energy values way before than filmic, so halo and light source become less distinguishable, making you think that the light source (and so its reflection) is bigger than how it really is.



    Hope it was useful, correct (some terminology could be not) and that it's clear enough what I mean.
    Last edited by LazyVirus; 23-May-17 at 05:02.
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  7. #1547
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    Hi LazyVirus. thanks for the explanation.
    Continuing here the talk about de Filmic.
    https://blenderartists.org/forum/sho...Blender-Filmic
    Be patient, English is not my language.



  8. #1548
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    So, after exhaustive testing, I have come to the conclusion that the issue with small detail preservation (especially in areas with lower light levels) is literally the only thing left that is really holding back the denoiser.

    For these types of details, you need to render almost to the point of complete convergence, and even then it's not guaranteed they will be preserved.

    The firefly messes are gone, the black pixels are gone, many of the general artifacts at default settings is gone, we just need a resolution to this final issue.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  9. #1549
    Member lsscpp's Avatar
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    maybe it's a limit with every denoiser: small details might be very similar to noise, how far can an algorithm go to tell what is the difference?
    Everything's relative. Even saying "Everything's relative".



  10. #1550
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    Originally Posted by lsscpp View Post
    maybe it's a limit with every denoiser: small details might be very similar to noise, how far can an algorithm go to tell what is the difference?
    Yep - that is a problem. Humans are very good at spotting patterns in noise and can tell what is genuine fine detail - and what is just garbage - a computer doesn't deal with stuff like this very well

    That's why we have projects like "Zooniverse" where volunteers trawl through astronomical data looking for small patterns or signals in noisy data - and it's also why security based on captchas works.

    It may not be fully solvable until we have neural network type chips - like IBMs Truenorth, which mimic the way a brain works. Early tests have already demonstrated that such chips are far superior at pattern recognition.
    Last edited by moony; 24-May-17 at 07:53.



  11. #1551
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lsscpp View Post
    maybe it's a limit with every denoiser: small details might be very similar to noise, how far can an algorithm go to tell what is the difference?
    The pass information might suggest otherwise, the small details, if actual geometry or bumpmaps, will show up in the denoised normal pass and very fine detail will show as white in the denoised normal variance pass.

    In a way, this could theoretically be resolved by having the feature weight values be adaptive based on the overall light level and detail density in a given region (so very fine details in dim light would create a region that is denoised with a very low neighbor weighting value, that which is key to getting said details).

    However, even with neighbor weighting values of 0.25 or lower, the denoiser then appears to do a very good job in at least getting rid of the final 10 percent of noise (which getting rid of through rendering would more than double your render-times). Then you have the benefit of having a render with no fireflies (which some materials in some lighting situations can produce a lot of).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  12. #1552
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    Originally Posted by Ace Dragon View Post
    In a way, this could theoretically be resolved by having the feature weight values be adaptive based on the overall light level and detail density in a given region (so very fine details in dim light would create a region that is denoised with a very low neighbor weighting value, that which is key to getting said details).
    If this means removing one slider from the UI, I would vote for it anytime!
    Everything's relative. Even saying "Everything's relative".



  13. #1553
    Originally Posted by Ace Dragon View Post
    In a way, this could theoretically be resolved by having the feature weight values be adaptive based on the overall light level and detail density in a given region (so very fine details in dim light would create a region that is denoised with a very low neighbor weighting value, that which is key to getting said details).
    And in away then we could mix it also with Adaptive rendering, without needs to set a sample rate, but be able to set a quality level.
    It seams to get into such a direction, and possible combination then..



  14. #1554
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lsscpp View Post
    If this means removing one slider from the UI, I would vote for it anytime!
    Ultimately, only Lukas would know if this is entirely feasible (ie. making the values adaptive rather than static for every pixel). It may end up being the only way to deal with small details properly (as he mentioned on the developer site that while there is a known solution for resolving artifacts using a low neighbor weight value for all pixels, doing so would entail changes that would create a significant bump in memory usage and a major performance hit).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  15. #1555
    Does anyone know if it's possible to use denoise with baking? Or is it technical limitation?
    I can only give suggestions, personal opinions and constructive critique, but it is your decision what you do with it.



  16. #1556
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    Doesn't work at the moment & i don't know the reason. Was mentioned somewhere already...
    I assume will probably work in the future, as demand rises and open minds start storming the new ideas



  17. #1557
    Member lsscpp's Avatar
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    How can denoise be invoked via python (something like bpy.data.scenes[Scenename].whatever.use_denoising = True)? I need to test it via command line queue and can't figure this out...
    Everything's relative. Even saying "Everything's relative".



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