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  1. #1501
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Testing the newest build (with the fixes), impressions.

    1. -No firefly messes even without clamping, now I can test properly.
    2. -I seem to be seeing notably improved results with low weighting values (0.2 - 0.2), the heuristic might also be helping to minimize the amount of unprocessed pixels in the image that can occur as a result (while improving feature and edge detection).
    3. -Very low sample counts in hard to light indoor scenes now have a bit of bias in terms of darker regions (with 32 and 128 samples, but you really shouldn't set the amount that low if you want really good results anyway).
    4. -The detection of really small features (particularly those lit only by indirect lighting) could still be improved (this could perhaps be done by way of putting more emphasis on the denoised normal feature passes).

    Working much better overall, and it could only improve from there with a combination of better quality denoising techniques and better sampling (such as removing much of the randomness in said sampling like you can with the dithered sobol patch).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  2. #1502
    robwesseling
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    I want to add a strange bug with the build of may 19 - 2017 (latest at the time of writing):
    Denoising renders fine (as almost always for me) but now the blur node is causing big black squares with NaN as value:
    Attachment 484984
    This didn't happen with other builds before. Only when I select gamma in the blur node the squares are gone.
    Strange isn't it?



  3. #1503
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    As far as I know, the compositor has always been prone to wonky results in certain cases unless you clamp the color values beforehand (such as through a color mix with clamping on or via a color-ramp).

    Does it still occur if you just let the image render without denoising?
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  4. #1504
    robwesseling
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    Without denoising, no black square. With the denoiser (previous post) I tried also a few other .hdr's , and clamp, but didn't solve. Only muting the blurnode, or check the gamma option on in the blur node made the black squares dissapear.
    Here same scene ( I still had is open) , but without denoise option on;
    Attachment 484992



  5. #1505
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Post a bug report then, it's possible that the denoiser is producing a few pixels carrying bad information (that only becomes visible via certain operations).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  6. #1506
    robwesseling
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    Originally Posted by Ace Dragon View Post
    Post a bug report then, it's possible that the denoiser is producing a few pixels carrying bad information (that only becomes visible via certain operations).
    Ah , I believe it's the first time to report a bug, but did it; T51566
    Was not easy, had to double check if it was reproducible with factory settings, which is not always the case.
    Seems most likely to happen with Environment map, sharp glossy metal, flat-shaded, denoising with default settings and blur node



  7. #1507
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Two more bugs crushed
    https://lists.blender.org/pipermail/...ay/096710.html
    https://lists.blender.org/pipermail/...ay/096711.html

    This includes the black pixel bug with high radius settings.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  8. #1508
    This is great news. And the fix was made so fast. Kudos to devs.
    I can only give suggestions, personal opinions and constructive critique, but it is your decision what you do with it.



  9. #1509
    Member lsscpp's Avatar
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    My impression is that Lukas silently follows this thread and almost realtime fixes the bugs we highlight here.
    The other impression is that there a really strong push from BF devs to clean up this feature and have it in 2.9 with no flaws, which is great by the way.
    Last edited by lsscpp; 19-May-17 at 21:52.
    Everything's relative. Even saying "Everything's relative".



  10. #1510
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lsscpp View Post
    My impression is that Lukas silently follows this thread and almost realtime fixes the bugs we highlight here.
    Not exactly, it's just that people are being quick to report issues to the bugtracker and Lukas has time to fix them (the reports tend to be more detailed and come with .blend files).

    Anyway, with proper testing now possible, here is my go with the denoising (2048 samples, feature weights at 0.2 and 0.4, radius value at 10).
    ExDenoiseTest7.png

    Everything worked perfectly apart from some details remaining blurry in shadowed areas. This is just regular path-tracing though, I'm testing with branched path tracing now and it seems to be providing better results (compared to regular tracing in the same time-frame).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  11. #1511
    Originally Posted by tobbew View Post
    Another problematic area I have noticed with denoiser is when parts of an object is "blocked" by (empty) parts of the volume of a smoke simulation - it seems it loses the details in that region.
    In case this troubles anyone else it can be solved by adding a totally transparent surface shader ("None" does not do it). I have reported it on the bugtracker. Thank you Lukas in case you read this, it's really a feature that has increased cycles usability for me!



  12. #1512
    Wow. This is great now. Especially for interiors. Here is a scene downloaded from Blendswap and rendered. Render time 15 min on amd 390x gpu @ 1920*1080.



    The settings:

    Last edited by bigbad; 20-May-17 at 13:18.
    I can only give suggestions, personal opinions and constructive critique, but it is your decision what you do with it.



  13. #1513
    Member cekuhnen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lsscpp View Post
    My impression is that Lukas silently follows this thread and almost realtime fixes the bugs we highlight here.
    The other impression is that there a really strong push from BF devs to clean up this feature and have it in 2.9 with no flaws, which is great by the way.
    I hope - archiz is a pretty good business area and with faster rendering Cycles can be used there more with less disadvantages vs other commercial engines such as Corona or Thea which are very fast in interior renderings.
    3D Design Generalist - Faculty Industrial + Interior Design
    Chair Interior Design - Wayne State University



  14. #1514
    Originally Posted by cekuhnen View Post
    I hope - archiz is a pretty good business area and with faster rendering Cycles can be used there more with less disadvantages vs other commercial engines such as Corona or Thea which are very fast in interior renderings.
    I agree, making Cycles more suitable for rendering architectural interior scenes should be a high priority, the denoiser is a fantastic step in the right direction.

    I haven't used Corona or Thea Render before. Do you know what makes these engines so fast for interior rendering? Is it because they use (irradiance) caching? And could Cycles have something similar?



  15. #1515
    Can someone define fast?
    I can only give suggestions, personal opinions and constructive critique, but it is your decision what you do with it.



  16. #1516
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Any pathtracer that has bidirectional tracing will be far faster with interiors (because it guarantees that every sample will find a light).

    The downsides though is that it creates numerous limitations in what you can do with materials and that the average implementation tends to be complex and hard to understand. Fortunately, there's a lot of room for optimization for standard pathtracing yet.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  17. #1517
    Originally Posted by Ace Dragon View Post
    Any pathtracer that has bidirectional tracing will be far faster with interiors (because it guarantees that every sample will find a light).
    Not many renderers actually have Bidir. From memory I know Renderman offers Bidir + Vertex Connection, Thea with one of the unbiased engines seems to be a Bidir variant too, and likely IRay with Architectural sampler. Vray and Corona used to have it but no longer (in Vray they didn't developed any further, but one can still try it). The fact is that I tested Bidir in every engine I could (Vray, Corona, IRay, Mitsuba) and was not impressed at all. In real scenes it tends to be slower, leaving a lot of fireflies and parts which it simply can't resolve well, leading to big noise variance accross the image. The best approach to that is Path Tracing + some kind of Light Cache, that's what Vray and Corona are doing and dominating this field.



  18. #1518
    Member YAFU's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by straaljager View Post
    I agree, making Cycles more suitable for rendering architectural interior scenes should be a high priority, the denoiser is a fantastic step in the right direction.
    Without intending to confront on my part, just wanting to know why it should be a high priority? Priority for whom?

    @bigbad, filmic is killing a lot highlights in this render, shading looks very flat. Is not there any better setting for it with filmic? If I remember correctly, Troy had recommended reconfiguring all the lighting in old scenes that were not set up for filmic, not just switching to filmic in color management. I have not done much testing whit filmic, but maybe by reducing the size of the lamps?
    Last edited by YAFU; 20-May-17 at 21:43.
    Be patient, English is not my language.



  19. #1519
    Originally Posted by YAFU View Post
    Without intending to confront on my part, just wanting to know why it should be a high priority? Priority for whom?
    You're right, faster interior rendering shouldn't be a priority, but it would be nice to have. I think it could draw in more architects (who are used to renderers like V-ray or Corona which heavily rely on GI caching to keep rendertimes manageable in interior scenes) to try Cycles.
    Last edited by straaljager; 20-May-17 at 22:09.



  20. #1520
    Member YAFU's Avatar
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    I did not intend to be 'right'
    Just curious about what you said, because I had never read Ton mention anything about preferences for architecture things.
    But there is no doubt denoiser is going to mean a breakthrough for interior renders, ArchViz people will be very happy.
    Last edited by YAFU; 20-May-17 at 23:00.
    Be patient, English is not my language.



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