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  1. #321
    Hi Chris,

    I'm interested in the Modo 902 License. You should have an email from me.
    The foundry sales said you can transfer the Modo 902 license. I'll pay them for the upgrade to Modo 10.



  2. #322
    Member Chris Offner's Avatar
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    Hey, I'm already in the process of finalising the license transfer with someone else I'm afraid. Due to The Foundry's bureaucracy it's taking a while but in the unlikely event something should go wrong and the purchase doesn't get finalised, I'll get back to you on this.



  3. #323
    Originally Posted by Polyart View Post
    Hi Chris,

    I'm interested in the Modo 902 License. You should have an email from me.
    The foundry sales said you can transfer the Modo 902 license. I'll pay them for the upgrade to Modo 10.
    Since Chris has sold his license you might be interested to know that the Foundry is offering 40% off Modo. That would be about the price of a license+transfer+upgrade. Of course, without any of the extra stuff Chris was offering, but it could be an option if you want the latest version.



  4. #324
    Member Chris Offner's Avatar
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    Another confusing thing I noticed.

    Many people have utterly incorrect notions of camera work, and conflate the terms zoom, dolly and crop into a single term - usually "zoom".

    Blender's terminology and behaviour is also misleading there.

    To clarify:

    A zoom is changing the focal length of your lens. The camera does not move from a zoom. It stays put.
    A dolly-in or dolly-out is where you move the camera forward or backward. A dolly itself does not change the focal length but does change the position of the camera.
    A crop changes neither the focal length nor the position of the camera but instead changes what area of the sensor/film back gets exposed.

    In Blender in Perspective View, going View > Navigation > Zoom In / Zoom Out does not perform a zoom, it performs a dolly. The focal length of the view does not change, the position of the viewport camera does.

    But then if you go into Camera View, there are two alternative behaviours:

    A) With Lock Camera to View turned ON, it behaves just like in Perspective View, i.e. it dollies in and out.

    B) With Lock Camera to View turned OFF, it scales the canvas in and out. It's not even a crop because it doesn't affect the content of the rendered frame - just the content of the viewport.

    So View > Navigation > Zoom In / Zoom Out in Blender is never a zoom.
    It almost always is a Dolly, except when in Camera View with Lock Camera to View turned OFF.


    Then it's a Scale Canvas Up / Scale Canvas Down.

    But even with that all said, I don't know how to scale in and out of the canvas while Lock Camera to View is on (which it always is to me because that's the only way I ever use the Camera View, like in any other DCC.

    Any thoughts on this? I do think terminology matters - both for more competent/knowledgeable artists and for UX/UI.
    Words have meaning, and you wouldn't randomly use "focal length" when you mean "sensor size" either, because that'd be confusing.

    If someone can point me to where I can best raise this issue without it being shut down as not a bug, I'd greatly appreciate it.



    It's also confusing that Blender lists "Dolly" as a "Zoom Style". All three options are "Dolly" moves - they move the camera, don't change the focal length.
    Last edited by Chris Offner; 20-Apr-17 at 10:17.



  5. #325
    BA Crew Fweeb's Avatar
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    It's a tough call, because where do you draw the line? I've finally gotten some folks I work with to understand (and regularly use) the difference between tilt and pan, for example.

    2.8 would be the best time to make this kind of fix. It's probably best to bring this up with someone one the UI team. Severin perhaps?



  6. #326
    I don't think "zoom" is commonly defined as only changing the focal length, it's a term that covers all the possible methods. Note that Zoom Style affects both 2D and 3D editors as well. Even if we're only talking about real world cameras, there's terminology like "digital zoom".

    There may be better names than Continue/Scale/Dolly, it's difficult to explain the differences in one or two words.



  7. #327
    Member Chris Offner's Avatar
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    Neither real optical zoom nor digital zoom changes the position of the camera though.



  8. #328
    Right, but I think in the context of CG the term is used more broadly for any operation to make an object appear bigger or smaller on the screen. For example.



  9. #329
    Member Chris Offner's Avatar
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    As I said... The same goes for MODO of course.

    Moreover - what are your thoughts on the fact that Zoom In / Zoom Out changes its behaviour when in Camera View with Lock Camera to View is OFF?

    In this case it behaves neither like optical zoom (it doesn't change focal length), nor like digital zoom (it doesn't change the content of the frame to be rendered, only scales the 'canvas'), nor does it move the camera.

    Even terminology aside altogether - this sudden change in behaviour was wholly unexpected and unintuitive to me. I think when in Camera View, I should scale the canvas with the same function regardless of whether or not Lock Camera to View is turned on or off.
    Last edited by Chris Offner; 20-Apr-17 at 14:58.



  10. #330
    Agreed on the definition of Zoom vs. Dolly; however, disagree on crop. The perspective of the image changes with a dolly, but does not change with a zoom (as long as camera and subject are not moved). The end result of a crop is essentially the same as a zoom, is it not? Yes, I realize that it's a change in focal length, but the only real effect of a change in focal length is to "crop" the image. In other words, when you zoom, you just take a small section of the image and make it larger. It should not change any other characteristic of the image as long as the camera and subject positions don't change (barring any specific lens idiosyncrasies like reduced exposure at longer lengths, which should not affect CG).



  11. #331
    In the context of CG a word was needed to describe operations to make an object bigger or smaller on screen, and by convention that ended up being "zoom". Maybe a new word should have been invented, but going against the tide seems useless at this point.

    Regarding camera locking, I'm not sure what the right default or naming is, but both modes are useful. One is for positioning the camera, the other for inspecting the render like you would in the image editor. For tweaking the composition of objects in the shot, tweaking shaders, ..., without affecting the camera. For basically the same uses cases where you want to pan and zoom in Photoshop.
    Last edited by brecht; 20-Apr-17 at 19:13.



  12. #332
    Member Chris Offner's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Shenan View Post
    The end result of a crop is essentially the same as a zoom, is it not? Yes, I realize that it's a change in focal length, but the only real effect of a change in focal length is to "crop" the image. In other words, when you zoom, you just take a small section of the image and make it larger. It should not change any other characteristic of the image as long as the camera and subject positions don't change (barring any specific lens idiosyncrasies like reduced exposure at longer lengths, which should not affect CG).
    Depends. With perfect optics, it should be the same, yes. But in reality, depth of field significantly differs between changing focal length (zoom) and cropping in. And of course lens breathing and lens distortion etc. is also affected. So on a real world camera there are significant differences.
    Of course most obviously, a crop reduces resolution because it only uses a smaller area of the sensor, whereas an optical zoom retains full resolution.

    Originally Posted by brecht View Post
    Regarding camera locking, I'm not sure what the right default or naming is, but both modes are useful. One is for positioning the camera, the other for inspecting the render like you would in the image editor. For tweaking the composition of objects in the shot, tweaking shaders, ..., without affecting the camera. For basically the same uses cases where you want to pan and zoom in Photoshop.
    No doubt both modes are useful, but should they both be performed by the same function? Personally I find it inconsistent and confusing.
    And the fact that you cannot seem to scale the canvas when in Lock Camera to View mode, which is what I want 99% of the time I'm in Camera View, seems odd.

    What would also be nice if there were a way to have Blender auto-fit the camera frame to the size of the view. Currently I have to press HOME every time I resize my 3D view.

    In MODO for example, it auto-fits the camera frame to my view:

    Is there an option for that?

    Personally I think this should be the default behaviour, and scaling up or down the canvas may then uncheck the auto-fit​ behaviour.



  13. #333
    Originally Posted by Chris Offner View Post
    Depends. With perfect optics, it should be the same, yes. But in reality, depth of field significantly differs between changing focal length (zoom) and cropping in. And of course lens breathing and lens distortion etc. is also affected. So on a real world camera there are significant differences.
    Of course most obviously, a crop reduces resolution because it only uses a smaller area of the sensor, whereas an optical zoom retains full resolution.
    You're right, I was mistaken. For some reason I thought that focal length didn't change depth of field unless distance also changed, but I have verified that I recalled incorrectly. The other effects you mentioned are all imperfections though, so it depends if people want those or not.

    However your point still stands that there should be 3 options: zoom, dolly (camera move), and crop - if we want to replicate the options available in real-world photography and cinematography and have the concepts be familiar to people experienced in those.

    I also agree with others here that unfortunately the term "zoom" has been mangled throughout the DCC field (which is unfortunate).



  14. #334
    Member Indy_logic's Avatar
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    So after watching your newest video and thinking on it I have this opinion:

    - regardless of Zooming or tracking, the default should always be tracking and not zooming. Regardless of what everyone calls it. If you want to change the focal length (zooming), you should use the focal length parameter or, there should be a modifier key (like CTRL-ALT mouse wheel or whatever) to put you, temporarily, in "zoom" mode. The reason for this is that when doing camera animation, you don't normally want to zoom the camera around, you want to move it around the scene. This is what you normally see in film and video.

    In fact, the zooming of a camera is quite a noticeable and almost "unnatural" effect. In the 1960's and 70's directors started using zoom lenses more and more because they had previously been either very expensive or non-existent. back then, cameras were also very large and heavy so it was much more difficult/expensive to move the camera. So, when Zoom lenses came out everyone started using them to give the illusion of movement. Now a days, it's associated with cheesy 70's movies. I'm not saying it's a "Bad" effect, it's just that normally, when you watch movies today and you see the camera zoom in on someone or something, it's very unusual for the DP to use an actual Zoom lens. They usually, physically move the camera because it feels better and more natural.

    - If you want to change the zoom in on the camera frame, I think that it should be a modifier key. But honestly, as it's already been pointed out, this should be a non issue. I think the software should just automatically zoom to the width or height of the frame and give you an over-scan parameter to zoom in or out from there. But you should not "have to" even think about this in the first place. I appreciate that you can move the camera frame around in the window and it is a useful feature to have but I don't think it should be the default behavior.

    I love this discussion by the way. I think it's very helpful to see how other software works instead of just assuming that the Blender way is always better. Surely, in a lot of instances, it is. But not all, and I think it's a lot of help to have a rational discussion about those instances.



  15. #335
    Member Chris Offner's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Indy_logic View Post
    - regardless of Zooming or tracking, the default should always be tracking and not zooming. Regardless of what everyone calls it. If you want to change the focal length (zooming), you should use the focal length parameter or, there should be a modifier key (like CTRL-ALT mouse wheel or whatever) to put you, temporarily, in "zoom" mode. The reason for this is that when doing camera animation, you don't normally want to zoom the camera around, you want to move it around the scene. This is what you normally see in film and video.
    Indeed, to be clear: I would never want CTRL+MMB or scrolling to actually zoom i.e. change the focal length.

    Originally Posted by Indy_logic View Post
    If you want to change the zoom in on the camera frame, I think that it should be a modifier key. But honestly, as it's already been pointed out, this should be a non issue. I think the software should just automatically zoom to the width or height of the frame and give you an over-scan parameter to zoom in or out from there. But you should not "have to" even think about this in the first place. I appreciate that you can move the camera frame around in the window and it is a useful feature to have but I don't think it should be the default behavior.
    You can scale up the canvas so the camera frame fills the 3D view by hitting the Home button. But it is not currently the default. I fully agree that I think it should by default auto-fit the camera frame to the 3D view size, just like shown in the MODO GIF above. Overscan should be an additional option but not the default - just like you describe.
    Last edited by Chris Offner; 22-Apr-17 at 09:14.



  16. #336
    *bump*
    Since we're on tpoic of Modo/Blender functionality, here I was wondering about radial dupiclation.

    Modo has a few very cool tools for dupicating Geometry, either as copys or instances (or a Modo specific instancy type that doesn't apply to Blender). Blender has the Array functionality and either a reference/null object to use for offset and rotation for a helix or a clone along a spline. Both of these require the user to calculate either distance or angle themselves or go by visual offset which isn't precise.

    Modo has a tool that is very visual and interactive.



    I either use the manual calculation method with array modifier and a null to offset and rotate or go with a spline modifier which doesn't leave me much room in terms of precision of correct even distribution.

    Is there another way in Blender to achieve this which I am not aware of?



  17. #337
    Member Chris Offner's Avatar
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    I also think Blender's Array Modifier could be made a lot more intuitive and simple for radial duplication. MODO's tool has a more elegant user experience here in my view.



  18. #338
    The array modifier is easy and powerful once you understand it. Sure it isn't as fast as Modo's for simple things but still more than capable. The difference in time for me is negligible. Pair that with dupliverts, dupligroups etc... and you get something comparable to the Modo experience.



  19. #339
    Member Craig Jones's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by XenWildman View Post
    The array modifier is easy and powerful once you understand it. Sure it isn't as fast as Modo's for simple things but still more than capable. The difference in time for me is negligible. Pair that with dupliverts, dupligroups etc... and you get something comparable to the Modo experience.
    Perhaps something of an addon here would actually combine all that into that experience. Something to speed up the set up and manipulation - I am thinking this way because of the HardOps radial stuff I have seen.



  20. #340
    Originally Posted by Craig Jones View Post
    Perhaps something of an addon here would actually combine all that into that experience. Something to speed up the set up and manipulation - I am thinking this way because of the HardOps radial stuff I have seen.
    Just dupe the original or create an empty at the same location and parent the new one to another empty and use the dupe as an object offset. Then use the parent empty to rotate. This method is non-destructive and you can change the number of duplicates and the angle at any time. I usually also parent the parent empty and the original to a circle so I can move the whole setup around. A lot of explaining but less than a minute to execute.



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