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  1. #21
    I enjoyed Smoking_mirror's game and the other also.
    Congratulations to the winner, and I look forward to the next BGMC 21

    just idea.....It would be nice if this BGMC 20, was actually an annual.... so give up all winners of previous BGMC and release it as a package on the occasion of the anniversary?
    Last edited by Mistran; 07-Apr-16 at 05:28.



  2. #22
    Member Nicholas_A's Avatar
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    Honestly how did bee speed get a better score than mine?
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  3. #23
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    Nice results. It still seems wrong to take votecount as 1st argument and ratings as 2nd argument(imagine a game which everybody hated and all of the peoples who see it imediately votes 1 star in each cathegory resulting in billions of votes. This, fortunately, didn't happen). I'd suggest something like this:
    Take vote count.
    Divide it by highest vote count getting a popularity ratio.
    Multiply it by 10 and round it getting another rating factor - the popularity. The most popular game(My Feathered Familiar) will have it be 10, the least popular game(Clashed - doh!) will have it be 12 / 22 * 10 = 5.45... | rounded = 5.
    Add it to the ratings as another rating factor.
    Get the average out of it using the method shown by deepma89.
    And we have pretty fair voting, I think.
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  4. #24
    Member Nicholas_A's Avatar
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    I noticed that some games actually had a slightly worse score than others but more votes on the game, causing the average to go up.
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  5. #25
    Member Nicholas_A's Avatar
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    It think the results were biased. I analysed them and I got more 0's and 1's than anyone else. I think people purposely voted bad for me.
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  6. #26
    Oh well. I'll have to think of a new voting method for the next BGMC. It's a shame since I liked this one, it was nice to see a break down of each game's strengths and weaknesses. But it was also a little disappointing not to be able to track voting until after the competition was finished.

    EDIT:
    I don't think averages would work either though.

    One thing I've noticed in the past when handling the judging to the BGMC (15&17) is that people taking part in the contest are much more generous when voting than those just voting after playing the games.
    I know that for this BGMC I probably didn't vote lower than a 3 for any game.
    Maybe that's because we understand better the skill and hard work that goes in to making the games and we respect our competitors for taking part. Drive by voters though tend to be much harsher. Because of this a game which has a lot of voters is going to find that generosity badly diluted.

    You'll notice in fact that the average results are almost the reverse of the total vote results.

    There's also the super fan effect. In the past I've had one or two people who voted only for one game, and gave it all top scores. Perhaps a family member, or a close friend who wants to offer support by voting. I usually accepted the vote because the effect is reduced by other, more popular games getting more votes overall.

    But in a system that uses averages, a game with very few votes could benefit a lot from a couple of high scores from uncritical fans.

    You should also note:
    There was a difference of less than 0.22 votes between the highest average and the lowest. (4.3%)
    Discounting F-escape this drops to 0.16 votes. (3.2%)
    Since we couldn't give 0 stars a completely random distribution of scores would give a statistical average of 3.0.
    So the difference between an ideal possible average and the actual average of all the games was 0.22 (6%)
    The difference between the top average score and the next one was 0.002 (0.04%) (This would certainly be enough to force a recount in an election. )

    I don't think these give a clear enough difference to say that any of the games was clearly better than the others.

    EDIT2:
    Originally Posted by Nicholas_A View Post
    It think the results were biased. I analysed them and I got more 0's and 1's than anyone else. I think people purposely voted bad for me.
    You got fifteen 1 star ratings spread over the different categories.
    I got 75! Hahaha Some people really hated my game it seems, but ironically all those one star reviews helped to push up the total score a little anyway.

    I don't think I gave anyone 1 star reviews, though I think I voted F-escape the lowest since I never managed to get past the first three robots so I never got to see the flying section of the game...

    Maybe we should go back to secret voting with only the top three games announced publicly. I did that for BGMC 15 and then sent PMs to all the contestants with a break down of their personal scores. Not as exciting as a public vote but everyone was happy with the result.
    Last edited by Smoking_mirror; 07-Apr-16 at 08:03.



  7. #27
    Member Nicholas_A's Avatar
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    I think a good way to vote would be you are forced to play each game if you want to vote so that each game gets the same number of votes. And somehow track IP addresses so nobody can vote more than once.
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  8. #28
    I apologize for not handling this better; clearly the voting strategy needs to be decided and agreed upon in advance.
    In short, it seems most the confusion is down to my own mismanagement of how voting was presented.

    To be clear: the results of this contest aren't changing, but perhaps this discussion can help construct a better plan for BGMC 21


    Originally Posted by deeempa89 View Post
    To me it doesn't make sense that a game with an lower average score wins over multiply with higher because it had more judges. That's like Hannah Montana - The Movie would would surpass 2001 - A Space Odyssey because it got more reviews and doesn't measure what score the review gave.

    Do you see my point?
    Yes. I even calculated the averages and displayed them in the voting results (but I didn't use them to determine the winning game).

    The difference between your example and this case is that all the games had a very equal opportunity to be voted on (except for clashed, which was added to the voting options a day late). If more people voted for one than the other, the only reason for that I can see is that they liked one game more and shared it with people who then played only that game. If this is true, then more votes = more people liked it.

    I might still have used an averaged system had I not already declared that I was going to simply add everything up.

    Originally Posted by Smoking_mirror View Post
    But it was also a little disappointing not to be able to track voting until after the competition was finished.
    That was mainly due to me making the vote display page during the week of voting, and only getting it into working order the day before voting ended.

    Originally Posted by Nicholas_A View Post
    And somehow track IP addresses so nobody can vote more than once.
    IP addresses were tracked (or at least their hashes were). Unless some people used proxies to vote from multiple IP addresses (and I don't think anyone here would do that), there are no duplicate votes.



  9. #29
    Member cam.dudes's Avatar
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    I think a good way to vote would be you are forced to play each game if you want to vote so that each game gets the same number of votes
    I do like this idea. I never got around to playing all of the games, and naturally I didn't want to vote on a game I didn't play. But had I remembered that there is a bundle I could download with all the games I would have played them all. Next time, I guess.

    Maybe the star ratings should be defined. Gamejolt's is stupid (5 stars is perfecto, 4 is great, 3 is good, 2 is meh, 1 is terrible). I didn't give any game a 5 here because I basically view a 5 as unattainable. Maybe it could be like:
    1. most or all was terrible
    2. some was bad
    3. some was good
    4. most was good
    5. all was good


    So 5 stars would be essentially impossible, and reserved for only brilliant games.



  10. #30
    Member Nicholas_A's Avatar
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    But still, how did I get second to last place right over fescape which sorry, but that game was really bad. Also feathered familiar was amazing and it scored third to last place.
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  11. #31
    Originally Posted by Nicholas_A View Post
    But still, how did I get second to last place right over fescape which sorry, but that game was really bad. Also feathered familiar was amazing and it scored third to last place.
    What? Didn't Feathered Familiar... win?

    EDIT: Or do you mean Birds of a Feather?

    EDIT EDIT: Or are you looking at the "Overall" category?

    Lushmoss is confused...
    Last edited by Lushmoss; 07-Apr-16 at 17:28.



  12. #32
    Member Nicholas_A's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lushmoss View Post
    What? Didn't Feathered Familiar... win?

    EDIT: Or do you mean Birds of a Feather?

    EDIT EDIT: Or are you looking at the "Overall" category?

    Lushmoss is confused...
    According to what deempa89 wrote on the previous page (which he said were the final results)
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  13. #33
    Originally Posted by cam.dudes View Post
    I do like this idea. I never got around to playing all of the games, and naturally I didn't want to vote on a game I didn't play. But had I remembered that there is a bundle I could download with all the games I would have played them all. Next time, I guess.

    Maybe the star ratings should be defined. Gamejolt's is stupid (5 stars is perfecto, 4 is great, 3 is good, 2 is meh, 1 is terrible). I didn't give any game a 5 here because I basically view a 5 as unattainable. Maybe it could be like:
    1. most or all was terrible
    2. some was bad
    3. some was good
    4. most was good
    5. all was good


    So 5 stars would be essentially impossible, and reserved for only brilliant games.
    Rogue temple's 7 day roguelike competition has a rule where you have to judge at least 5 other games when you submit and generally only cometitors vote, but they had 125 entries so maybe that works for them.
    With such a small competition like BGMC it's always going to be something of a popularity contest.

    In which case you kind of have to be active about drumming up interest in your game if you want to get people to play it and vote for it.

    Things I've found useful in that respect;
    Having a WIP thread isn't required but it can really help to make people aware of your game.
    Releasing a demo before the deadline allows you to deal with game breaking bugs that would stop people voting for your game.
    Using a very new version of blender or a development version can be off putting to people (but not a disaster, I think lone photon used an experimental version of Blender).
    Accessibility is a big deal, consider multiple control setups and a mouse invert option (and maybe a low graphics option).
    And dont forget that as developers we like to dig around and see how you did something, thats part of the fun of the BGMC. Encrypting your files or only submitting an exe file could lose you voters.

    Anyway, ghanks to Gandalf3 for managing BGMC 20 and to everyond else for taking part! I had a lot of fun.

    I'll think about the voting system and try to come up with something agreeable for BGMC 21.



  14. #34
    Originally Posted by Nicholas_A View Post
    According to what deempa89 wrote on the previous page (which he said were the final results)
    Ahah, I see now, thank you.

    Well, I feel as though the star system does have the advantage of reflecting whether a game is even playable and how attractive it is before you even play it, which are aspects which an average rating system doesn't take into account. For instance, some people might try Clashed but found it wouldn't work on their machine, or someone couldn't be bothered to give Leaf on the Wind a go because it's premise or screenshot was boring, but it would not affect these game negatively because people who could play a higher-end game or liked an abstract premise would play and give them positive ratings.

    (Unless, of course, those who could not experience the games just gave 1 stars to everything. But I don't think that a lot of people do that when they haven't even tried/been able to try a game.)

    To the short and sweet of it, I don't think any system is perfect and the flaws mentioned are more or less valid, but this system did have good points.
    Last edited by Lushmoss; 07-Apr-16 at 21:15.



  15. #35
    Originally Posted by Lushmoss View Post
    Well, I feel as though the star system does have the advantage of reflecting whether a game is even playable and how attractive it is before you even play it.
    If you judge a game by it posters, which I think "before you even play it" is, this wouldn't be a game competition but rather a marketing competition. My vote would be to let a jury which has played all games would be the greatest option. As a note I didn't vote for either Clashed (since it wasn't in the package) or Birds of a Feather because I couldn't get it started, but obviously saw it working in the showcase video of all games, therefore I felt it was fair to let people who had a better understanding of that game judge it so both of those games got lower down on the list because of that.

    And I'm sorry for creating this confusing, this weren't by plan, by rather came from my trying to clear my own confusion. Thought I must admit that I think that it gave birth to an interesting and necessary discussion.

    @Nicholas_A According to the results that the were giving from the Star Rating system you and I got on a shared 4th place just below BeeSpeed.



  16. #36
    Though Gandalf3 said beespeed wouldnt be counted in the voting so actually you guys shared 3rd place.
    A podium finish isnt so bad.



  17. #37
    Originally Posted by deeempa89 View Post
    If you judge a game by it posters, which I think "before you even play it" is, this wouldn't be a game competition but rather a marketing competition.
    Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying that marketing should be a category or it's own competition or anything, and what you go on to say is what I meant by whether or not a game is playable having an effect on the final results.

    But it is a reality that you do need to have a decent hook to get an audience interested enough to play your game in the first place. I'm sure people would disagree with me, but I think that it is a part of a game's experience: how you're exposed to it in the first place, all the way to how you leave it.

    It doesn't necessarily have to be a great or revolutionary hook, but it shouldn't be poor.



  18. #38
    Member Nicholas_A's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Smoking_mirror View Post
    Though Gandalf3 said beespeed wouldnt be counted in the voting so actually you guys shared 3rd place.
    A podium finish isnt so bad.
    But still, the number of votes and outliers for each game will change the average so if each game got the same number of votes, and we took away the outliers (data that was way low or way high compared to other data; there is a formula to calculate the outliers), we would have a more exact score.
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  19. #39
    http://blendermonkey.com/bgmc20/results.php
    That's the final results.
    As you say nicholas, you only need a few people to vote really really low to totally screw up your average.

    I'm not sure about the voting for the next BGMC but I'm toying with the idea of a secret competition where the games are submitted anonymously to the organizer and people download the pack and play them all without knowing who made them. There wouldn't be any WIP or previews. I think that might be an interesting one off theme for the BGMC. It'd be fun trying to guess who made each game too.



  20. #40
    Member Nicholas_A's Avatar
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    I'm toying with the idea of a secret competition where the games are submitted anonymously to the organizer and people download the pack and play them all without knowing who made them. There wouldn't be any WIP or previews. I think that might be an interesting one off theme for the BGMC. It'd be fun trying to guess who made each game too.
    I totally agree with you.
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