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Thread: Blender 2.8 development thread

  1. #1881
    Originally Posted by Dantus View Post
    It should be possible for every user who understands the basic functionality to find it intuitively somewhere.
    I really truly don't think it's possible in an application as complex as Blender. The discoverability of features and functions can certainly be improved upon, but not reading the manual when working with a 3D program will set you back. So why not just read it? I really don't understand.

    Besides that, a lot of programming work still happens in people's free time, and all of Blender gets given away for free for everybody, including the documentation. IMO, we as users should really honour that by using what's already available and not burden those who work on Blender with still more work, just because we are too lazy to read the documentation.

    That's why I always point out things in the manual, because I think the documenters are doing a great job and are giving us a gift, and we should use it more.
    Competition is great and fun for things like sports and games. For more serious matters cooperation might be a better approach.

    It is time - ecogood.org



  2. #1882
    Originally Posted by zeauro View Post
    Yes, it is an hardcoded keymap. There should be a way to inform about them inside Input section of User Preferences , even if they are not editable.

    Right click menu is not able to show the shortcut. And search don't do it either.
    in this case the problem is that the functionality is not about the tool, is about how to use a control. Is no the same that give info to the user about some function of a tool like extrude.

    But will be good a way similar to Zbrush, when you press a key and put the mouse over some icon it exaplin the icon functions.



  3. #1883
    I was just agreeing that all shortcuts should be discoverable from Software because they are editable.

    But I don't agree about a fancy idea that all behaviours of controls could be discoverable from UI.
    Sanne is right. It is a problem that every app of same complexity of blender encoounters.
    And to know how to use a control, manuals are the correct place to learn it.

    Here, we have to deal with a numeric field. It is not just a Simple icon. It is more complex.
    You can reset to default the values but you can also add a driver or a keyframe, add them to a keying set, doing multi-value editing ..etc...
    Explaining everything that can be done on a numeric field will not fit into a simple tooltip.

    Blender have more developers than volunteers making documentation.
    Release cycle is fast. And developers are forced to document any new feature into Release log.
    But guys who are making manual cannot follow this rhythm.
    At each new series UI change, and they are starting a new manual and they have to re-document basics plus new behaviours. They are not always the same volunteers. And they are not all blender users since a long period.



  4. #1884
    Originally Posted by zeauro View Post
    I was just agreeing that all shortcuts should be discoverable from Software because they are editable.

    But I don't agree about a fancy idea that all behaviours of controls could be discoverable from UI.
    Sanne is right. It is a problem that every app of same complexity of blender encoounters.
    And to know how to use a control, manuals are the correct place to learn it.

    Here we have to deal with a numeric field. It is not just a Simple icon. It is more complex.
    You can reset to default the values but you can also add a driver or a keyframe, add them to a keying set, doing multi-value editing ..etc...
    Explaining everything that can be done on a numeric field will not fit into a simple tooltip.
    All the suites uses the same way to this, video tutorials for beginners.



  5. #1885
    got an idea how many short cut there are in blender ?

    last time I ran a counter on that got over 3000!

    it would be a job to re write all the tool tips !

    the book is there to help on how and what short cut are used in which window ect.
    tool tips are tips not a page of text to explain things!

    so many people think they can learn just by playing with blender and not read the book
    that is non sense you need some intro with book or good videos intro to learn the basics!
    and blender book is still free as I remember LOL


    thanks
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  6. #1886
    Originally Posted by DcVertice View Post
    All the suites uses the same way to this, video tutorials for beginners.
    But they are paying people to make them and maintaining them up-to-date.

    If you are a volunteer, you will probably not be enthusiast to the idea to remake a complete video tutorial every 4 or 6 months just to incorporate one or two new tips.



  7. #1887
    Originally Posted by zeauro View Post
    But they are paying people to make them and maintaining them up-to-date.

    If you are a volunteer, you will probably not be enthusiast to the idea to remake a complete video tutorial every 4 or 6 months just to incorporate one or two new tips.
    Nobody update that videos each few months in pro suites.



  8. #1888
    Because they are doing video tutorials on software that have a release cycle of one release per year or several years.

    But it is not the release cycle of blender.
    And blender users have to admit that video tutorials or books or manuals will never be complete or up-to-date, in accord with last Blender release.



  9. #1889
    Originally Posted by Sanne View Post
    I really truly don't think it's possible in an application as complex as Blender. The discoverability of features and functions can certainly be improved upon, but not reading the manual when working with a 3D program will set you back. So why not just read it? I really don't understand.
    All functionality should be somewhere where it can be found. It should be in the tool shelf, ... or at least in the menu. From my point of view, when any experienced 3d artist switches to Blender, they should be able to learn the basics and from there, it should be mostly clear what they need to to in order to create complete 3d models.

    Originally Posted by Sanne View Post
    Besides that, a lot of programming work still happens in people's free time, and all of Blender gets given away for free for everybody, including the documentation. IMO, we as users should really honour that by using what's already available and not burden those who work on Blender with still more work, just because we are too lazy to read the documentation.

    That's why I always point out things in the manual, because I think the documenters are doing a great job and are giving us a gift, and we should use it more.
    It is not my intention to complain about Blender's functionality. 2.5 was a huge step forward regarding the UI and I hope that in the 2.8 and the follow up releases we are going to see many usability/workflow improvements. I highly appreciate the work that is being done by the developers in general. The same is true for people who contribute in any other way to Blender, like people who write the documentation. When it comes to using Blender in its current state, I absolutely agree with you.
    Since this thread is about 2.8 and future suggestions, I am mentioning my opinion about exactly that. And I strongly believe that there are numerous ways to improve Blender's usability to help users who are not using Blender on a daily basis. Not hiding functionality would be a great start for that.



  10. #1890
    A shortcut editor like Maya/XSI would be a good start.

    There is no better solution then a visual and interactive one like this.

    First you can see the keyboard and the buttons, which is perfect for memory.
    Then it is interactive, you can click on keys and see what they do.
    Its easy to find non-assigned keys which is very important.
    You can see keymaps for editors and other sorted categories.

    All this functionality makes it super-easy and even fun to discover what is there.
    A endless list is a nightmare compared to that.

    32443.jpg



  11. #1891
    Originally Posted by zeauro View Post
    I was just agreeing that all shortcuts should be discoverable from Software because they are editable.
    Originally Posted by Dantus View Post
    All functionality should be somewhere where it can be found. It should be in the tool shelf, ... or at least in the menu.
    Yes, I agree, at least as much functionality as possible, especially the shortcuts, which isn't always the case now. It's a great way to learn them also, or to look them up when I've forgotten.

    I think we mostly agree, I just find the term hidden a bit too harsh when something is in fact documented.
    Competition is great and fun for things like sports and games. For more serious matters cooperation might be a better approach.

    It is time - ecogood.org



  12. #1892
    Originally Posted by Sanne View Post
    I think we mostly agree, I just find the term hidden a bit too harsh when something is in fact documented.
    I am used to work with usability experts and that's what they tell me all the time in discussions
    If you analyze the tracking data of applications, it really makes a difference whether it is directly visible in the application or if it is just documented. That was at least the case in some projects I worked.



  13. #1893
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    2.8 just got a substantial core update (from Dalai). The viewport engines are now part of the workspace concept
    https://lists.blender.org/pipermail/...er/101035.html

    It will allow users to quickly preview a number of things for starters (such as the final render settings). Watch for more changes soon (as seen with the design patches also in review).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



  14. #1894
    Member myway880's Avatar
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    been lurking only for a while ,

    The thing is about all this, discover-ability vs being crowded and cluttered. Doesn't all this get solved or at least partially solved by work spaces ?.

    e.g Modeling work spaces gets only modeling tools , and without all the other extra non modelling tools in there, you get all the extra free space to add more modeling buttons that were only available as hotkeys before ?



  15. #1895
    Member Ammusionist's Avatar
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    I apologise in advance if this is not the place for this, but I have been considering a couple of suggestions for 2.8 and I'm not sure where to put them!

    1) Workflow locked add-ons:
    When enabling an add-on it should be possible to select the workflow to which the add-on applies, then as the user switches between different workflow contexts, add-ons are unloaded and loaded accordingly, ensuring that only as much memory as is required for the current workflow is being used.
    When selecting an add-on with this model, the user should be able to select either "Global" or multi-select from a list of currently defined workflows.
    If a new workflow gets defined, it only has access to the workflows selected as "Global".

    2) NLA (Video Editor) Image Sequence Extrapolation:
    If an image sequence is extended beyond it's number of frames, currently it retains the last frame in the sequence. Would it be possible to select an extrapolation mode of either "Last Frame", "Loop", "Ping Pong".
    In "Last Frame" the frames retain their current functionality: [{1,2,3,4,5}5,5,5,5,5,5]
    In "Loop", the frames repeat from the first frame into the extended section: [{1,2,3,4,5}1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4]
    In "Ping Pong" the frames roll back from the end and then forward as needed: [{1,2,3,4,5}4,3,2,1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2]

    Please feel free to redirect me if this is not the place for these suggestions!
    "It's a primitive culture; I'm just trying to blend-in!" - Inebriated Counsellor Troi
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  16. #1896
    Originally Posted by myway880 View Post
    Modeling work spaces gets only modeling tools , and without all the other extra non modelling tools in there, you get all the extra free space to add more modeling buttons that were only available as hotkeys before ?
    It seems that you did not realize that tools that are non modelling tools when you are in edit mode are global tools that can also be useful for modelling, too (snapping tools, transform tools, grease pencil).
    Tools are restricted to T column. The rest in the UI are properties.
    If a lighting addon is visible in T column when you are editing a mesh, it is because it was not written to be invisible in edit mode.
    There could be a workspace dedicated to UV editing or Normal editing. But currently, they are just represented inside one tab of Toolshelf.
    For the rest, there is no posing tool for armature visible when you are editing a mesh.

    Globally, workspaces should convert global tools and some properties into 3DView widgets and restrict addons to their appropriate workspace.
    There will be no work on UI if there was no hope to have a less cluttered UI as a result.
    But don't expect a miracle.
    Although you are making a moderate use of modelling addons, you can easily reach an amount of useful modelling tools around 80 tools to respond to all cases inside a professional workflow.
    (20 tools per component type + 20 tools hard to classified like PET, mirror, symmetrize...)

    Don't expect any software to be able to show all of them at first sight.



  17. #1897
    Member Akira_San's Avatar
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    Anybody else got problems with the latest blender 2.8 buildbot version and AMD video. Have a black cube on open blender and no material updates?
    anime, manga, blender3d



  18. #1898
    Member Felix_Kütt's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Akira_San View Post
    Anybody else got problems with the latest blender 2.8 buildbot version and AMD video. Have a black cube on open blender and no material updates?
    Had this issue with build I downloaded on the 14th: blender-2.80.0-git.abcda06-windows64 RX470 Nitro+
    FunLinks: . . . . . . .



  19. #1899
    Member Akira_San's Avatar
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    Ive compiled blender2.8 and still the same. So its a new bug.
    anime, manga, blender3d



  20. #1900
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Depsgraph planning for the next few months
    https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/D...ng-October2017

    The modifier system is scheduled to be back in place by the end of November, Multires and OpenSubDiv meanwhile won't be back in till early next year. I'm guessing 2.8 won't be ready for heavy work until next Spring or even next Summer by the looks of it (depending on how much volunteer help they get).
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
    Adventures in Cycles; My official sketchbook



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