In this article I want to talk about negative aspects of the programming community, regarding beginner programmers. This is a touchy topic. I will try to explain both sides to the best of my ability, but I’m not endorsing either side. My only hope is that some readers will gain more empathy for the people they are communicating with, and hopefully use that knowledge to make friendlier communities
This seems helpful for understanding each other here.
Coding is a very complicated, vast and extensive field. Being a ‘newb’ at it is going to do nothing but test most (experienced) people’s patience. Learn to self-educate or go to a learning center who specialise in easing beginners in. When you no longer consider yourself a ‘newb,’ then you can start asking (relevant) questions. This also applies to most any other professional field.
Blender seems to have this problem as well, with people coming in knowing nothing of the software and expecting it to work for them right off the bat. I don’t have much patience for people who ask questions like ‘how do I model a cup? How do I move this cube? What’s edit mode? How do I rig this?’ There’s plenty. literally tons of material both online and off that covers these basic concepts. I have no objection to people pointing ‘newbs’ of this kind to Google. If they can’t even self-educate on beginner subjects, why should the professionals? Time is a precious commodity.
‘Newbs’ seem to get too much attention these days - everything from making UI’s ‘newbie-friendly’ to ‘don’t let them do this, template that, we don’t need that option cos newbs don’t use it.’ It’s infuriating and frustrating.
Newbs are the life blood of a software
New blood is good blood…
Some older users are angry about the game engine existing, (bge)
However there is no industry, there are individuals whom make choices.
Blender is amazing, and more blender coders becoming veterans is super important for the future of blender.
The next newb, may later by the next ideasman, or significant_bit
Tristan, and Youle, and Moguri all started somewhere.
Now I can make any game mechanics I want, including unique untested ones, INSIDE A WEEK LONG JAM.
Newbs are blenders future.
Some older users are angry about the game engine existing, (bge)
Really, I’m not surprised. Have you seen the state of it? You have? You just choose to ignore it… okay. We’ll agree to disagree with that right here right now.
Newbs are the life blood of a software
No. They’re really not. The lifeblood of a piece of software is the people who make use of that software the way it was intended to be used, professionally and functionally. A ‘newb’ in Blender can make a cup, a professional can make a fully developed animated film - that’s what it was intended for. Professional users can also use software for projects that they weren’t exactly intended for as well - I’ve seen animated films done in PowerPoint for example.
It’s important to let new people learn about new programs and projects, but teach them the ways of the professional! Your kind of reasoning is terrifying, yet it is the common consensus in todays society. Why should experienced people cater to and make life simple for ‘newbs?’ There’s a tradeoff here that most people seem to miss.
It’s like drawing for the first time as a child. Okay they can draw a stick-figure. They’re still a ‘newb,’ so what are you to do? Do you encourage them to keep practicing and even teach them more complicated concepts, or do you keep them at their current level and say ‘that’s very good! No need to improve.’? It makes me laugh though that some people would genuinely stick that stick-figure in an art gallery! Call me cold-hearted, but doing that just undermines experienced people’s work who’ve been doing it for years and years, been taught (both self-educated and with a tutor), practiced, and became good at their craft.
Have you used the upbge fork?
Than you don’t know the state of it.
I wrote a arcade game from scratch in under a week, with modular actors, enemies, vehicles and weapons, and an game agnostic UI controller.
(river city ransom meets mad max)
The game logic is very good, the render needs work, but that is why we have evee on the way and the clay engine.
So this thread was meant to be a backdoor way to advertise the BGE and your own personal projects?
As much as I have come to agree with the UPBGE possibly being the resuscitation the engine needs, you need to give this a rest for now.
As I said, let UPBGE speak for itself if and when it passes the review process and becomes the official engine version in master. Otherwise, all of your posts pushing the BGE and your skills with it (which comprises almost all of your replies for the last couple of weeks) is nothing more than a quixotic quest to cause a mass change in opinion without any change in the situation which prompts these discussions.
As I said in your other thread, do what you can to help UPBGE get into the state that is needed to pass code-review, that way you can proudly say that you actually did your part in saving the engine. Otherwise, starting these threads and hijacking others will more likely lead to you being banned rather than save the engine.
You didn’t say ‘UPBGE’ BPR, you said ‘Game Engine.’ My response to your entire post though regardless; ‘so what?’
I ain’t getting into a discourse about the game engine with you BPR, because I’ve seen how you drag out these conversations with other people. This thread isn’t even about the BGE or its derivatives, it’s about ‘it’s hard being a newb.’ That’s what you have titled it, or do you not care about that?
Actually, newb blender coders, and game engine coders, and bpy scripters etc, are all very important.
We are very kind to newbs in the bge game engine section.
New users in general (not programmers or aspiring programmers) tend to spew myths that catch on. Often you will see people say oh I won’t learn cycles because nodes are too complicated. Something only a newb would say and then people start repeating that.
I agree with @Kurtis.
I’m against catering to newbies but not 100%. Show them how to fish and they’re going to figure out how to do the rest. That’s how It was with me.
Everybody has been a newbie here, but not like nowaday’s newbies.
I’ve been noticing that nowadays newbies tend to be just as annoying as spoiled kids. Add the immaturity (taking constructive criticism as an offense) and you’re done. You have a terrible person.
Programming is not easy, nobody ever said it was going to be easy. If your teacher/tutor said it was, they were lying to you, because this isn’t easy at all.
Programming, unlike other fields, is not something you memorize and done, it’s something you actually learn and apply the concepts in real stuff (your projects). (That’s why you don’t learn from copying/looking at other people’s code)
If you want to be a programmer, learn to love it, learn how to teach yourself, devour books and tutorials before asking stupid questions around online just to stress the already stressed!
The UPBGE team suffers from that, we get a lot of unrealistic requests and questions. We recently had a team member being so stressed he simply had a burnout and went berserk.
(Keep in mind that this doesn’t only apply to programming!)
“Every morning, as I awake… am a newbie.”
Why we have a saying, a phrase:“Those who hurt early, early fuck up the day.”
BPR would you consider making the thread title a little more specific? At first glance it gives the impression it’s a more general topic. If it is about programming in particular, then perhaps include that in the title.
In general there is a very antagonistic attitude towards people engaging in an activity for the first time. Particularly from more experienced people. Both “groups” could avoid a lot of it very easily. I have a simple guideline when trying to impart some knowledge to someone with less experience.
It works well for me regardless of whether the individual intends to pursue it, or they’re just dabbling. I don’t mind answering questions, as long as the person in question shows some progress. At the very least it shows they’re genuinely interested, and taking some time to study and practice. That’s not a waste of my time and theirs. If however they aren’t progressing, and not taking the time to learn the most basic of principles, I have to call a halt to my involvement. Or even consider not answering in the first place based on what I read.
I think it’s an exchange. Not a one way communication. The beginner needs to commit to some level of study and practice. And have no expectation that the information they receive should be watered down to make it more palatable. Nor should they expect that their questions should be answered.
The more advanced person can exercise some tolerance and acknowledgement of progress. If it gets to a point where they’re not seeing any evidence of that commitment then communication stops. No smart-arse comments or insults. Just move on. And that doesn’t take long to establish.
This guideline applies to me too, when I’m the one with inexperience. I feel it’s important to study the basics and the terminology, before asking any questions.