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  1. #21
    Member JustinBarrett's Avatar
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    TBH I am not sure what you are going for with this baby still. If you get it to work, great...but cycles still takes minutes per frame to render...it's not evaluated like a realtime engine

    realtime is evaluated as Frames Per Second or 'fps', as you probably already know...I'm not trying to talk down to you in any way.

    and Cycles and other non realtime renderers are measured in a reciprocated fashion...seconds(or minutes or hours) per frame...

    for your project I highly recomend a realtime engine....although, in all honesty, I do not fully understand what you are trying to do aside from having an AI controlled baby.
    "The crows seem to be calling my name." Thought Kaw.
    Project Valiant



  2. #22
    (@SterlingRoth Read my last message before JustinBarrett's)


    @JustinBarrett Simply put, the AI human baby will randomly wiggle its bones for a few minutes (60fps HD video (hiring the render)), then it'll began to happen to get acceleration - one of its action sets gets a reward. Then, simply put, sensory input of where its bones are, will match similar, and select the set that had gotten the most acceleration. It learns to crawl, by trying actions, rewarding by acceleration, then doing on sensory cues the best actions. It learn to crawl, faster and faster.

    Then, lots more after that.
    Last edited by ADVANCESSSS; 09-Jul-17 at 01:01.



  3. #23
    Member SterlingRoth's Avatar
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    I'm just talking about my own experience. You probably can have your AI code evaluate at every frame, but I've never seen anyone do anything like that. You'll have to reinvent the wheel for a lot of components. Be prepared for the code to be more difficult to debug and develop.



  4. #24
    Member SterlingRoth's Avatar
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    So you are trying to do something like this:


    Or this:


    But it has to be a realistic baby. Am I tracking?



  5. #25
    You're getting closer.

    Yes. However, as my baby jiggles around trying to learn, the scene will never cut and say "Generation 44". It will stay awatch, as the baby goes from jiggling to crawling fast (or rolling, etc, then crawling).

    As for the simulated baby robot in the old UDK, the baby only jiggled in purposely desired (and limited) ways/speeds, and looks like it was completely animated, or given modes of animation. My baby will look and act very real.

    I'm asking in the volunteer section for some form of ragdoll, to test code on before I finish my baby's body for 350USD.

    By saying what you did in Cycles, and that I'd have to find a way, are you saying that the call names aren't much there in Cycles? What about BGE? Could you code this concept in there? (if you know the BGE call names). Does Cycles simply not allow coding like BGE does? Is there a difference between coding in BGE and coding in Cycles?



  6. #26
    Member SterlingRoth's Avatar
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    Most of your questions can be answered by reading more about python coding.

    The algorithms to learn those forms of locomotion are incredibly complex. They have to run in generations, because that is the best way to simulate and get feedback. You run the locomotion simulator for 30 seconds, then you evaluate the performance of the simulation. You then take that data and use it to generate traits based on what worked and what didn't. And they will often run 100 or more simulations simultaneously, then pick the best result. That is pretty much the state of the art. To bypass the step of simulating multiple generations, so you can just watch the baby learn to walk is PhD level coding, with a team of 20 people. That's a million dollar algorithm right there. Could blender run such an algorithm? Theoretically, yes. Could you pay someone to do that for under $50,000. Highly doubtful.

    You can just push the make code button and expect everything to just work out. It is a long and drawn-out process to make powerful and robust code. You are asking for code that is so powerful and robust it doesn't exist yet. There is a lot of great research going on in simulating locomotion, but nothing remotely close to what you are describing.



  7. #27
    Do you have a specific site where you learned all/most of the Blender call names for Cycles and/or BGE? Do you know what I mean by call names? What I mean is, you learn Python, then, before you can even use your python code in ANY program, you must first learn the program's own python code names for moving bones etc, then if you ex. move to UE4 (if it used python), you'd have to learn its python code names. My take is that finding and therefore learning python or C++ is simple as I had learnt c++ in days, but then I fell when trying to get code into a robot, and never bought the robot spider. I have to 1st find Blender's python code to learn, before learning Python essentials off of Python.com. You might say read the Blender Manual, but last time I checked, which I'll check out now, it won't even list anything that sounds like call names, little own list them all..... I need the material > the answers (python call names) with no article talking in the way - as long as I have them all and know how to place them, there won't be thaaat many of them. It's the inability to get them. You got/know them?

    Update: Checked out online, doesn't look pretty.


    Yes, those algorithms simulate many near-clones simultaneously, then combine the best brain traits/actions and further tweak them.

    With my algorithm, it'll work fast and excellent with just 1 baby, my technique is better. Each action-set of the crawl/walk must be learned and improved, and doesn't have to be learned in order.
    Last edited by ADVANCESSSS; 09-Jul-17 at 12:34.



  8. #28
    Member Secrop's Avatar
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    After having a bit of knowledge of python, you should dig blender's datablock system (there's no need to be a pro in python for this.. a basic understanding of the language is already sufficient if you know what you want to change, therefore knowing the datablocks structure is quite important).

    In blender, you have all the data stored in datablocks. All you need to do is to perform changes to these datablocks with your code, and if needed to call updates.

    Datablocks are the basic components that blender uses. Meshes, Objects, Nodetrees, Materials, Scenes, etc, are all datablocks (you can look to bpy.data to see how the data is structured).

    After having an idea how the data is stored, you may need to learn how the whole interface works. Blender uses a «State+Events>Operation>Draw» loop, and you need to take this into consideration when writing scripts that work in an interactive enviroment. (check Modal vs Non-Modal operators, and event triggers, for more insights)

    About the AI stuff, I leave it up to you, and btw good luck with that.
    Last edited by Secrop; 09-Jul-17 at 12:53.



  9. #29
    Member SterlingRoth's Avatar
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    If you google 'blender python api' you will find a document with all of the python functions available in blender. Also, the 'python console's editor within blender gives you direct access to all of the python data in the file. Also in the outliner, there is a data block mode where you can view all the data blocks.

    I echo secrop's good luck with your coding. You're going to need it.



  10. #30
    Can't let you go yet SterlingRoth

    Few more questions.

    Talking about "same level of python access/capability in EEVEE", when you coded the Astro video, is the ONLY "hack" you did on the part where Cycles has a problem doing code between frames? (if, it has a problem there).

    There are 2 applicants saying they can easily code my AI, is there an approach that's probably straightforward that uses the API's code to simply rotate bones and save calculations? Or are they doing intensive tricks? I just want to have my AI in Cycles....I want to know the problem with coding it in there.....is code running between frames a problem, is code saving calculations a problem, etc...

    I mean, you can code in the API in Cycles "mode" (selected at the top), - if you were to code my AI, what problem (with the code) do you face man?... By what I heard you did with the Astro vid, you know of some problems with the API coding, that wouldn't be a workaround in BGL.
    Last edited by ADVANCESSSS; 10-Jul-17 at 13:41.



  11. #31
    Member SterlingRoth's Avatar
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    What is your end product here, man?

    I get that you want a crawling, jiggling, learning baby, But to what end? Is it a game? Is it a research project?

    What are you going to do once you have your baby all coded up?

    If I know where you are trying to go, I can help you get there. But at this point, I have no idea what you are actually trying to do.



  12. #32
    Gonna show it to professors. Also want to make sure it can grow into full human intelligence on my pc in-Blender (future-proof). I know, UE4, but it not happenin....many reasons.

    It is a simulation, game, research, creation, presentation, all in one.

    BGE physics is less accurate, timesteps have a lower limit, and my friend said so too. If I go with Cycles mode, API may have a very very/impossible time running my AI code (can't code my AI in it). Applicants are basically saying they can do it man...minds blowing.
    Last edited by ADVANCESSSS; 11-Jul-17 at 21:01.



  13. #33
    Member SterlingRoth's Avatar
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    Those applicants want your $350. No disrespect to any of them, but if they are telling you that they can do what you are describing for that price, someone is going to be deeply disappointed. Maybe you, maybe them, probably both.

    getting a physically based ragdoll setup is time consuming, but not that difficult. getting it to move it's joints randomly is pretty straightforward. getting it to learn from what it is doing and adjust it's behavior to improve the outcome is where you will run into a brick wall. especially if you think you can simulate from infant to adult seamlessly.

    Seriously, you think you are going to simulate 'full human intelligence'? What are those professors going to say when they see a creepy baby thrashing its joints randomly for 20 minutes?

    BGE physics would probably be more accurate, honestly. unless you are planning on programming a full physics engine in python to run alongside your frame by frame code execution. I don't know what your friend is telling you, but outside of the rendering, cycles isn't more realistic. Cycles is built to render frame by frame. BGE has subframe simulation for physics and it already exists.

    I want to answer your questions and support you in developing whatever you want to develop, but I think you are looking in the wrong direction. if you want to simulate the growth of human intelligence, the first step is to read, A lot. Find and read as many research papers on the development of human intelligence as you can. Find out what other people are doing. find out what works well, and what the limitations are. then you will have a fundamental basis to make a decision about what is or isn't possible.

    Right now, it sounds like you are trying to barge into a field in which you have no experience, and a fundamental lack of understanding. you're trying to tell people who have spent their lives researching in this field that you have it all figured out and they are stupid for doing it the dumb way. You're shouting your ignorance from the rooftops, and it's not a great look.

    I'm not trying to be mean to you, man. I've been trying to get through to you for like two weeks now. You are trying to start at one of the biggest unsolved problems in simulation. You are trying to go from a bicycle to a space shuttle with no steps in between. Simulating intelligence is totally cool and fascinating, but it isn't easy. it isn't beginner level work. It's hard, and that makes it much more rewarding when you do get to the point of making some progress on understanding a deep problem (this part takes years, if not decades). I encourage you to continue your research before you jump in with both feet.



  14. #34
    350USD for the body soon. The code quotes might be less if they keep saying "this seems easy" lol.

    Bro settle down haha...I never meant to sound boastful or rude or start any worrying. I never introduced myself indeed...I just didn't do that when I came here.

    This is me..... I am highly qualified. I have been working on a knowledgebase for 3 years 24/7, extensively and intensively, I can't even give an intro without saying a lot. There's lots. I have studied babies, read books, make incredible discoveries. I've read a lot, and wrote a lot. I am way ahead of all those researchers combined. I have mapped out things that you can't believe. I'm 21. It's all a working system, no magic no conspiracy.

    "What are those professors going to say when they see a creepy baby thrashing its joints randomly for 20 minutes?"
    It's not a creepy baby though......

    Lol someone on some other forum has said basically the same thing to me haha...but this time I'm actually implementing it than talking about it.

    Edit: Well, some people do sound too good to be true, they're rare, but I am honest kind wise and dedicated.
    Last edited by ADVANCESSSS; 12-Jul-17 at 23:25.



  15. #35
    Member SterlingRoth's Avatar
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    Alright man, I'm just trying to give some advice. sounds like you are on your path and you certainly have the rive to keep going. Best of luck on the project! I'm no python wizard, but I have some experience, Hit me up if you have any other questions

    And don't forget about all the help I gave you when you make your billion dollar discoveries!



  16. #36
    Thank yous for your help.



  17. #37
    "Cycles is built to render frame by frame. BGE has subframe simulation for physics and it already exists."

    Prove BGE physics is better. Also explain what is this extra option in BGE.



    A coder told me today, BGE's frame time or something changes, and must use delta to know when to start the next 0.25 seconds for motors to rotate during.

    I also want stable 60fps.

    And if the code of my AI slows things, I don't want it to quit, or drop from 60fps, or lower physics calculations.....this is horrible...



  18. #38
    I looked in the Cycles panel where gravity is, and it has a simulation step that is at 60 and can go higher and says it means more accuracy, it also has solver iterations per simulation step for better ccuracy..............so you were wrong?.........Of course it has better physics than BGE...
    Last edited by ADVANCESSSS; 14-Jul-17 at 21:12.



  19. #39
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    I still don't understand the question 'Can I use Python(or any code) in Cycle Mode'... This question bothers me badly. Please someone explain to me why is THIS the question to ask for what ADVANCESSSS wanted to do?

    Why ask that? To my understanding, Cycle is only one of the render engine, isn't it? That should only affect the visual and rendering side of things, right? Therefore the physics, animations and everything else are handled by other parts of Blender, right?

    Cycles should only affect the visual part of your project, not the logics, data, physics or anything else. This is driving me insane. If I'm wrong, please help me understand. I will learn whatever the deal it is to break myself out of this insanity.

    You also mentioned 'STABLE' 60 FPS. That is not a term you use with a frame by frame render engine. Using cycle will not give you anything 60FPS until you export your project in a video format. I know you are talking about it with BGE at that point, but still...

    You want to know if BGE physics are better.... I don't know what you are asking. Blender has one Physics engine only. You had no choice from the beginning. Whether you use Cycle or BGE or Blender Render, there is only ONE, ONE physics type to choose from. There are no better or worse because there was only ONE to begin with.

    I didn't understand your other post. I didn't understand this post. You sound like you are struggling to impress your professor. Good luck with that 350USD.



  20. #40
    Ugh, I lost most of my message. How horrible, so many things in it. I'll try to write it again.
    -----------------------------------------------------
    I'll gladly answer you better.

    Also I just figured out something crazy.



    Answer:
    Blender has 3 modes. - At the top you click the mode: Internal, Cycles, or BGE. Each mode comes with the package of physics, render, object stuff ex. ragdoll, python, and 5thly a interactive real-time/poor-time/superfast-time variant/capability. As far as I know. 5 types of things. That's my pro classification of it all.

    I wanted to code in Cycles mode my AI because the physics was better I originally thought. Both Cycles and BGE mode can give me the same Cycles movie after my AI runs yep (output animation unless real-time bites frames!), same interactive/real-time (viewport), same object stuff ex. ragdoll, but physics in BGE?, and my thread asks if Cycles lacks coding my AI's brain. Both modes have a little problem, maybe.



    Crazy discovery:
    UE4 and BGE and other's render is probably worse because they are real-time for *video *games, meaning they cut-back render, code, physics, object stuff ex. animation keyframes, and real-time/interactivity unless you have a supercomputer, unless UE4 doesn't allow higher settings. BGE has sequential python, so no supercomputer will work unless 1 faster CPU. Plus Cycles will wait n wait for the code and render etc, even more than UE4 will, for the utmost best quality, while not requiring a supercomputer.

    Cycles has same "object stuff" as BGE and UPBGE and Armory and UE4 and Unity etc (or good enough), same code ability essentially just sequential atm, same/better render+getting real-time PBRs, as good/better physics, and real-time interactivity (viewport).

    Experts say human brain intelligence will need big code to execute, although my AI is efficient. Experts say BGE physics is different ex. hard to make things act soft yet hard to make things act hard in Cycles. And BGE & Cycles have physics timesteps and sub-frame steps, BGE 10,000 x 5 = 50,000, Cycles 1,000 x 100 = 100,000 = 2x better accuracy.
    Last edited by ADVANCESSSS; 15-Jul-17 at 16:14.



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