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  1. #361
    Member cgstrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by adamnerva View Post
    Just tested the rounded corners shader in Redshift as well. It can also handle narrow panel cuts and floaters (intersecting separate shells) at the same time with no issues. So it's not a matter of unrealistic expectations, but rather that blender has a very strange implementation compared to all the other solutions. Obviously, blender is free software, and so it doesn't make sense to complain or make demands, especially when it sounds like the dev has moved on already. But if you wish to make use of this awesome time-saver for game art, just know that there are more robust solutions out there. I'd say that for probably 80% of users, the blender bevel node is fine. For the price (free), it's pretty good.
    There was time to do such tests, builds were available. Developer (Brecht) kindly found time to make this unplanned feature and account for many things people were listing. Think it would be fair towards everyone and probably better for Blender if such reviewing is done during active development phase. It's safe to assume that developer made optimal choice given known variables (including requirements presented). It's also safe to assume that it needs to be light/fast instead of clunky and take into account every possible exception. I might be wrong. It might not be too late to submit your test scenes to official D2803 dev page, that's where they belong.

    Test scenes are easily solvable with combination of Bevel modifier and shader.
    2_12122017_ae4d.png
    You are not helpless in production, but have multiple ways to solve an issue. That's what matters by the end of the day- not to have your hands tied! The shader is just another tool in the toolbox, particularly great for smaller bevels. It does not have to be slow and bloated to work for everything.

    Also don't judge and point crowds to other apps so fast based on your anonymous opinion. Houdini Indie is most likely resolution limited and baking there is very slow to set up (includes a lot of low level shader assembly). So is every render engine that works with Indie. Max, Maya + Vray/Redshift is luxurious choice that is still arguably slower to set up than here with either shader or modifier.

    Please also take into consideration that in professional gamedev pipeline with tens/hundreds of artists, such expensive dependencies as Redshift only for bevels are unreasonable. As such not worth parading about unless it helps you with your personal artwork. You don't submit LP to your client/ad, presenting it as HP, tell one to install plugin and render it to see full potential. All models must be interchangeable between artists and software, so big bevels are modeled out decently for the HP pass. With soft as Modo, now Blender and Houdini, you have the advantage/ privilege to create complimentary smaller bevels when needed.
    Last edited by cgstrive; 12-Dec-17 at 17:08.



  2. #362
    bevelshaderpluschamfer.jpg

    Using the bevel shader on top of the bevel modifier with just a single segment produces a really nice soft chamfer that catches highlights nicely. Also, panel cuts must be at least half the width of bevel shader radius to prevent nastiness.



  3. #363
    Member so3Datel's Avatar
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    Hi guys
    I wrote my post not for say "Hey, you, fix it immediately!"
    I wrote my post because I found this limitation, and it seemed to me that this could cause trouble when using Bevel Shader. And I listed why and where it can cause problems. I do not know, maybe it was missed by accident or done on purpose.
    I do not want anyone to work for free, and program what I want. I just shared my opinion in the hope that this will make Bevel shader better.
    And of course, thanks Brecht.



  4. #364
    Member cgstrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by so3Datel View Post
    Hi guys
    I wrote my post not for say "Hey, you, fix it immediately!"
    I wrote my post because I found this limitation, and it seemed to me that this could cause trouble when using Bevel Shader. And I listed why and where it can cause problems. I do not know, maybe it was missed by accident or done on purpose.
    I do not want anyone to work for free, and program what I want. I just shared my opinion in the hope that this will make Bevel shader better.
    And of course, thanks Brecht.
    I apologize should I come off a bit rude. It's good thing to spot limitations, discuss with artists and report: https://developer.blender.org/D2803 It's best if everyone's proactive and engaged when features are actively being developed. We're asking devs to invest their time, very least we can do is offer ours to test their work and engage in discussions. This is not directed to any one individual, just generic advice.
    Last edited by cgstrive; 12-Dec-17 at 17:23.



  5. #365
    Originally Posted by cgstrive View Post
    There was time to do such tests, builds were available. Developer (Brecht) kindly found time to make this unplanned feature and account for many things people were listing. Think it would be fair towards everyone and probably better for Blender if such reviewing is done during active development phase. It's safe to assume that developer made optimal choice given known variables (including requirements presented). It's also safe to assume that it needs to be light/fast instead of clunky and take into account every possible exception. I might be wrong. It might not be too late to submit your test scenes to official D2803 dev page, that's where they belong.

    Test scenes are easily solvable with combination of Bevel modifier and shader.
    2_12122017_ae4d.png
    You are not helpless in production, but have multiple ways to solve an issue. That's what matters by the end of the day- not to have your hands tied! The shader is just another tool in the toolbox, particularly great for smaller bevels. It does not have to be slow and bloated to work for everything.

    Also don't judge and point crowds to other apps so fast based on your anonymous opinion. Houdini Indie is most likely resolution limited and baking there is very slow to set up (includes a lot of low level shader assembly). So is every render engine that works with Indie. Max, Maya + Vray/Redshift is luxurious choice that is still arguably slower to set up than here with either shader or modifier.

    Please also take into consideration that in professional gamedev pipeline with tens/hundreds of artists, such expensive dependencies as Redshift only for bevels are unreasonable. As such not worth parading about unless it helps you with your personal artwork. You don't submit LP to your client/ad, presenting it as HP, tell one to install plugin and render it to see full potential. All models must be interchangeable between artists and software, so big bevels are modeled out decently. With soft as Modo, now Blender and Houdini, you sometimes have the privilege to create complimentary smaller nice bevels.
    I feel like you are misreading what I have written. I closed by saying the bevel shader was pretty good. Even that it's perfectly suitable for 80% of blender users. How have I been unfair or judgmental? Also, my opinion is not anonymous since I post under my real name. In that since, you are the anonymous commentator here.

    Anyway, baking in Houdini is easier than blender, so maybe it's just been a long time since you used it? There is a ready made baking node in the out context, and also a baking panel available from the game development shelf. Also, baking is not slow in Houdini either. Maybe you should give it a try. Or not. Use what you like.

    If you feel that features in blender shouldn't be compared to other professional apps, that's a valid opinion, but one that I disagree with. Blender is a professional app. It just has a different development and financial model than the others.

    Also, it was not my intention to open a can of worms. I was unavailable to properly test this earlier, and did not take into consideration that additional feedback is probably unwanted ATM. Peace.



  6. #366
    Member cgstrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by adamnerva View Post
    I feel like you are misreading what I have written. I closed by saying the bevel shader was pretty good. Even that it's perfectly suitable for 80% of blender users. How have I been unfair or judgmental? Also, my opinion is not anonymous since I post under my real name. In that since, you are the anonymous commentator here.

    Anyway, baking in Houdini is easier than blender, so maybe it's just been a long time since you used it? There is a ready made baking node in the out context, and also a baking panel available from the game development shelf. Also, baking is not slow in Houdini either. Maybe you should give it a try. Or not. Use what you like.

    If you feel that features in blender shouldn't be compared to other professional apps, that's a valid opinion, but one that I disagree with. Blender is a professional app. It just has a different development and financial model than the others.

    Also, it was not my intention to open a can of worms. I was unavailable to properly test this earlier, and did not take into consideration that additional feedback is probably unwanted ATM. Peace.

    Edit:
    Redacted. Most likely misunderstanding. Continuation of which serves no constructive purpose. Apologize for stepping on anyone's toes.
    Last edited by cgstrive; 13-Dec-17 at 06:57.



  7. #367
    I am getting this kind of strange errors when I bake normals, and I dont know why. This is visible when using a metalic shader. I am also getting those strange noise points. Somebidy has found a workaround?
    Attached Images Attached Images



  8. #368
    Originally Posted by servapunk View Post
    I am getting this kind of strange errors when I bake normals, and I dont know why. This is visible when using a metalic shader. I am also getting those strange noise points. Somebidy has found a workaround?
    Could you share your scene?



  9. #369
    Here is the file: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqxs8HBYBw42iD4KX1O124-qXy0z . I am also getting a very slow baking process. When baking while using HP models without the bevel node is usually not that slow.



  10. #370
    Member Secrop's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by servapunk View Post
    Here is the file: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqxs8HBYBw42iD4KX1O124-qXy0z . I am also getting a very slow baking process. When baking while using HP models without the bevel node is usually not that slow.
    Your mesh is the cause of those 'artifacts'. Because of lots of ngons derived from the booleans, you get overlapping triangles (some with one edge with length 0) that produce wrong normals (or no normals at all).
    You'll probably need to clean up the topology to remove those ngons... thought this is quite a tedious work.



  11. #371
    Originally Posted by Secrop View Post
    Your mesh is the cause of those 'artifacts'. Because of lots of ngons derived from the booleans, you get overlapping triangles (some with one edge with length 0) that produce wrong normals (or no normals at all).
    You'll probably need to clean up the topology to remove those ngons... thought this is quite a tedious work.
    It's not 100% but yes...

    With a good topology the problem is 90% solved. In the other hand, it's true that with this solved you can obtain some noise in the bevel solution. I need to test a few it with a scene from zero with my meshes.



  12. #372
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Just to note, the devs. should be accepting bug reports related to this feature because it is in the Master branch, not 2.8.

    It will be a while before this new node is in any official release (2.8 is a ways out yet), so there's plenty of time to get issues fixed.

    Brecht is the one who developed this feature and is still around, so there is a chance of seeing improvements.
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  13. #373
    YEs, we must send the three bugs that already know (I think that actually the noise in this scene is similar to points grey that we see in other normal maps). Anyway Brecth knows this problems because where reported in the patch thread.



  14. #374
    Member Ace Dragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DcVertice View Post
    YEs, we must send the three bugs that already know (I think that actually the noise in this scene is similar to points grey that we see in other normal maps). Anyway Brecth knows this problems because where reported in the patch thread.
    You need to submit the bugs to the bug tracker, not the patch thread. Patch threads die out quickly after the feature is committed to master, bugs reported via the tracker are far more likely to be seen as the devs. go through it daily.
    Sweet Dragon dreams, lovely Dragon kisses, gorgeous Dragon hugs. How sweet would life be to romp with Dragons, teasing you with their fire and you being in their games, perhaps they can even turn you into one as well.
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  15. #375
    Originally Posted by Ace Dragon View Post
    You need to submit the bugs to the bug tracker, not the patch thread. Patch threads die out quickly after the feature is committed to master, bugs reported via the tracker are far more likely to be seen as the devs. go through it daily.
    If I remember, the bugs was reported meanwhile bretch developed the bevel shader, before commit.



  16. #376
    Member Linko's Avatar
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    A node setup to combine the bevel shader with a disp/bump texture you need to convert it into an height map with the bump node then to plug it in the normal input of the bevel and connect this one in the normal input of the shader. The details are baked in the normal map:

    bump and bevel.png

    In the latest build apparently the displacement input of the Material Output node only displaces the geometry, it can't be used as a bump map. It's probably to allow to use micropolygon displacement with an adaptative subsurf with less options to enable.

    I have updated my node setup to bake a fake SSS map with the bevel node, combine it with your albedo map. It's an alternative to a thickness map.

    Fake SSS node setup.png

    More infos: https://blender.stackexchange.com/a/100725/23134

    Originally Posted by adamnerva View Post
    Attachment 507584

    Been doing some comparisons between Houdini 16.5 and blender's bevel node. Screenshot from Marmoset toolbag 3 with the resulting baked normal maps on the low poly.
    It looks like Houdini clamps the bevel radius when the shape is tiny so it doesn't appear completely blurred. For the bevel cut disappearing the meshes using the bevel shaders are maybe attached with an union or something similar during the render so they disappear.
    Last edited by Linko; 13-Feb-18 at 11:24.
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