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  1. #41
    Note: I'm talking to everyone, quote is just to illustrate one point.

    Originally Posted by Falconius View Post
    once the modelers gain a bit of skill and realize their work is actually worth more than they are getting they'll move on to other things.
    The problem I see is that the market is being educated as well, in the negative direction. This thread is full of ecomomic theory on how work for these prices will affect the market, but it really doesn't work like that in practice; I live in a relatively developed country in eastern europe, and we are facing an issue where employers are paying minimal salary allowed by law for any sort of work (literally saw ad for a dr. degree with bunch of responsibilities at minimum salary) and are still trying to push for loopholes like hiring freelancers (for positions like filling shelves at a supermarket) even years after global market crash should really not be a factor anymore.

    (Speaking of which, statistics fun fact: graph shows a 1.5 increase in minimal wage in the last 10 years, but basic expenses have increased by 2.4. Banks and large companies have been bought by external investors, resold, and there has been no noticeable effect on our economy.)

    The issue with the whole thing is that it is a bunch of 1st world people talking about what something they come up with is going to influence a place they don't know, while disregarding that such a trend will not be temporary and will backfire first chance it gets. The fact that the website in question is not *aimed* at cheaper places abroad should not be ignored, because it educates the market in a part of the world where, I suppose, there is a greater amount of potential CG workers. By keeping wages at eastern level they are not making that area any richer and are, in fact, providing a platform to lower labour cost in the west.

    On the topic of slavery, you do not need "someone" to force you into doing something, because situations can be as forceful as a car pinning you against a tree with no fault of your own, but despite that what is the difference between being forced by someone to work for food or by a market to work your back off so you can barely afford to eat? I am not downplaying historical slavery, but when you have medical students (e.g.) being hired for nothing but "experience" or rather "references," just to be replaced by younger interns years at a time while they must find other ways to pay for their own expenses, is it not fair to say that they are being forced into it? Even saying that they could have chosen a more marketable vocation - firstly it is same across the board, second they didn't, and having to do something they did not want to do is, pretty much, a definition for being forced into it. And no, there is no overabundance of medical labour; we are actually in shortage of actual workers while postgrads can't get in.

    Now, if I may ask some of you with experience what you think of the following:
    How much can a 3D artist make at Decora? It depends on your productivity! If only two models are approved per day, the average monthly earning is $1000.
    I've heard a similar phrase before, but given what you know (or if you'd like to check the models on the site) how long, or how much effort would it take to make it to two models per day? Or, assuming they mean weekend work too, 3 models per day?
    Last edited by Kogomat; 12-Oct-17 at 03:26. Reason: Trying to fix quotes...



  2. #42
    Originally Posted by Kogomat View Post
    I live in a relatively developed country in eastern europe, and we are facing an issue where employers are paying minimal salary allowed by law for any sort of work (literally saw ad for a dr. degree with bunch of responsibilities at minimum salary) and are still trying to push for loopholes like hiring freelancers (for positions like filling shelves at a supermarket) even years after global market crash should really not be a factor anymore.
    Everybody who is acting in an economically reasonable way wants to pay the minimum price for a good or service at the desired quality.

    If some company tries to hire people at low prices, either they will fail because nobody will want to do the work, or they will succeed because there is an oversupply of labor and people are getting desperate.

    The fact that the website in question is not *aimed* at cheaper places abroad should not be ignored, because it educates the market in a part of the world where, I suppose, there is a greater amount of potential CG workers.
    The shift to overseas has already happened to many industries, there's no reason why it shouldn't happen (more) with the tiny industry that is CG. It should be a wake-up call to you that maybe your work isn't that valuable (internationally) and that you need to focus on something else.

    By keeping wages at eastern level they are not making that area any richer and are, in fact, providing a platform to lower labour cost in the west.
    The living conditions in emerging markets have improved significantly. They may still be bad by our standards, but they are an improvement. Both sides of the deal benefited - the west getting cheaper products, the east getting foreign capital. Of course there are workers affected in the West, but society as a whole is much richer in material terms. Even the poor people in the West can afford eating to the point of morbid obesity. They have smartphones, computers and flatscreen TVs.

    On the topic of slavery, you do not need "someone" to force you into doing something, because situations can be as forceful as a car pinning you against a tree with no fault of your own, but despite that what is the difference between being forced by someone to work for food or by a market to work your back off so you can barely afford to eat?
    First of all, a slave is property, held by force, who does not enjoy civil rights. Secondly, what developed country forces its people to work? Most of them have welfare systems, often with cash handouts. Those are the countries where 10$ doesn't get you far. In all the countries with so-called "wage slaves", that's a good chunk of money.

    I am not downplaying historical slavery, but when you have medical students (e.g.) being hired for nothing but "experience" or rather "references," just to be replaced by younger interns years at a time while they must find other ways to pay for their own expenses, is it not fair to say that they are being forced into it?
    Nothing literally forces them except their own expectations of themselves.

    Even saying that they could have chosen a more marketable vocation - firstly it is same across the board, second they didn't, and having to do something they did not want to do is, pretty much, a definition for being forced into it.
    Let's follow this idea to the logical end:
    "I want to do nothing except sit and home and play videogames, but society expects me to do work - that's slavery!"

    Seriously though, the idea that all vocations pay poorly is nonsense, because then poor pay is actually average. Maybe you don't like the average, maybe it's not as good as it was before, but what exactly is the alternative? No government can cure a poorly working economy by decree.

    And no, there is no overabundance of medical labour; we are actually in shortage of actual workers while postgrads can't get in.
    Both can't be true from a market perspective. Maybe there's a shortage of people ready to work for bid price? That's not a real shortage then. Sellers (postgrads) must lower their prices.

    If (like you say) all the vocations are having a hard time (i.e. the economy is in a poor shape), then where should the money come from? If your government is meddling with it, shortages can also be caused by capping prices.

    I've heard a similar phrase before, but given what you know (or if you'd like to check the models on the site) how long, or how much effort would it take to make it to two models per day? Or, assuming they mean weekend work too, 3 models per day?
    How long is a piece of string? You need to try it for yourself and see if they actually have that much work available, even at that price. Then you need to figure out what you can get away with.
    Last edited by BeerBaron; 12-Oct-17 at 13:36.



  3. #43
    All work is slavery, Even freedom is actually slavery when looked at truthfully.

    In fact everything is slavery, with the possible exception of slavery.



  4. #44
    Member Kerub's Avatar
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    I found this service (decora) last week and was wondering how much they pay you for the models. By the end of the day, I do agree with the OP about the fact that they are "violating" Autodesks terms, not explicitly though.



  5. #45
    Investing makes more money than work these days (read Pikettys Capital). If you're living in a first world country taking advantage of these extremely cheap prices should be profitable for you. Of course this is not optimal if making 3D models is what you want to do. But working higher up in the food chain is always an option. It's up to you if you want to make a profit or not. 3D is something you can always do as a hobby.

    People with cheaper living expenses and lower income levels are always going to crash the price for the same quality and quantity of work. That's globalization for you.
    CG enthusiast. Tools: Blender - Substance - Unity3D



  6. #46
    Are there any similar sites that don't require 3dsmax, etc?
    I'm maybe desperate enough to do something like this rather than 'getting a real job'

    I seem to remember ikea discreetly doing this for catalog rendering,
    if i remember correctly using exclusively maya and vray. I know the newer exports have a high
    'certificate of importing excellence', but it's nightmarishly disheartening perusing craigslist,
    or indeed.com type 3d job postings where the offers seem mildly scammy, dreamy, or highly professional.

    To be sort of relegated to that for not investing in one of the big progs.

    Whereas this decora site while it doesn't pay much is extremely inviting
    (they actually point out that they cater to differing artistic ability)
    and seems reputable about allocating payment, BUT you have to invest $1400 per year to export 2017 3ds format.

    I thought perhaps the progs were somehow invested in these places that firmly require specific format, because is it really that difficult to have an .obj model and even a separate zipped folder with the spec, normal maps, texture that an on site employee could quickly piece together, (it could get complicated but it is just furniture) but I suspect that it must be an unbelievable importer hassle where UV's are mirrored and rotated, upside down impossibly gigantic models, and much more built in to the prog that requires these companies to be pretty stringent. "This models faces appear to be all reversed from our normals standard."
    How tightly the model export is guarded, with it's yearly inability to function with previous versions
    almost creates an automatic super tight brazen ponzi scheme with anyone who uses them

    I think I could model 2 couches in a day which would be preferable to working 4 hours at any public job.
    I bet it's not all easy vases and sofas though...It would be a different story if for weeks you had nothing to choose to model but fully stocked victorian bookshelves, or antique bathtubs repros, grudgingly 3d model for $20 each with nothing new for days as you hope for a bathmat or wooden chopping block to show up as 'available'.
    Last edited by 3dcgfx; 09-Feb-18 at 08:37.



  7. #47
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    OP i totally resonate with your feelings. I have discovered as have many, what is going on, and its not good. People in developed nations/ Cities in the 1st world are being asked to directly compete with the same skills with people living in the 3rd world who have 10, 20 or 30 times lower cost of living.. What this leads to is a kind of global wage compression and a regression from a 1st world standard of living and income to a 3rd world standard of living and income. Its unacceptable, but the ruling elite and the rich think that this is the future, globalisation etc.
    We have to find a way around it. IMO these online websites should be region LOCKED and policed by the government to make sure that work is not being taken away from people living in the 1st world by people currently living in the 3rd world... If a person in the 3rd world wants to do the work they must move to the country the work is being offered in and play fair and square!.



  8. #48
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    More research into cost of living.
    Comparing Basic Cost of Living 1 Bedroom Flat in City Centre (monthly rent) Meal for 2 (Mid-Range Restaurant, 3 course) Transportation (Monthly Pass)




    London, UK ₨ 230,869.33 ₨ 7,553.22 ₨ 18,127.73
    Lahore, Pakistan ₨ 16,562.50 ₨ 1,700.00 ₨ 600.00
    Last edited by Thesonofhendrix; 12-Feb-18 at 13:49.



  9. #49
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    Consumer Prices in United Kingdom are 185.86% higher than in India
    Consumer Prices Including Rent in United Kingdom are 225.97% higher than in India
    Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 395.02% higher than in India
    Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 359.25% higher than in India
    Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 125.05% higher than in India



  10. #50
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    And how much higher prices of PCs are? They're usually even cheaper in 1st world countries.
    Look at it like this: If market was closed, all electronics would be made in your country, and you wouldn't buy your high-end PC for $3000, but for $30000. Yeah, it would be fair then... And smartphones for $10k.
    Everything has its pros and cons. Why don't you change industry to less globalized one? Even animating is much harder to be done remotely.



  11. #51
    Interesting discussion. Makes me wonder if we're treating the Blender developers like slaves. Heck, someone posted in another thread it's estimated the equivalent pay to develop Blender is something like $35 million USD. But we happily download it without paying a penny. So why are we happy with that, but not with paying $20 for a sofa?

    And keep in mind, the reason why software is so cheap is our own fault. We expect it to be free. Heck, just about everything on my computer is free software. And when someone like Blender Guru dares to mention his pay site, people go ballistic. Computer software and everything that goes with it has to be free, or we go nuts.

    So I guess we should all send our $8,000 checks to the Blender developers?

    Anyway, globalization has good parts and bad parts. The good part is some guy in India gets some money he wouldn't normally get, and can probably make a pretty good living, and we continue to get the cheap software we expect (well, actually demand...). The bad part is the guy in the US who feels his time is worth a whole lot more (and is probably right, based on how much he invested, and the cost of living), gets nothing. Choose your poison. Apparently most of us choose the first option.
    Last edited by ebergerly; 14-Feb-18 at 20:18.



  12. #52
    On the front page it looks like they only want proper registered 3DS,
    unless they accept student versions sort of slyly in the model submission section

    I drew comic books in the early '90's and towards the end I was getting $600 per page,
    then after the industry collapse I remember everyone in the studio's page rates
    across the board were slashed to $150 for pencils... Some guys were making
    thousands per page so it was a strange social "cabin fever" experience to be in.
    Now though I would be lucky to make 45 cents a month with adsense on a webcomic.

    I'm suddenly almost 50 and it's crazy how quickly things are evolving while devaluing,
    monetization, selling project t-shirts, mugs etc.
    Last edited by 3dcgfx; 15-Feb-18 at 11:21.



  13. #53
    Member rogper's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind to pay someone 100 USD for a chair if I plan to sell it 100 times in my website by 5 USD
    Just because they are selling it by 5 USD it doesn't mean that the person that made was paid like that.



  14. #54
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    It's worth noting that "slavery prices" for you,

    are considered perfectly liveable (and probably luxury, tbh) wages in 3rd/2nd world nations

    So it's easy to see why this sort of stuff is so popular.


    Though this absolutely isn't to say that there isn't a problem with this,




    I'd absolutely love to be paid 110$ rather than 14$ for my 3d modelling skills.

    But this is the reality of this modern globalized world, so we'll just have to deal with it, I guess.
    GPU: Sapphire R7 240 1GB Overclocked,CPU: Intel Pentium G2030 3.0 GHz 3MB Cache Dual Threaded,Ram: 8 GB Kingston Hyper X Fury DDR3



  15. #55
    For the past few days I've been trying to put together archvis portfolio stuff,
    and I was ready to try some actual designs, googling for some floor plans.
    This guy 3d models and renders architectural floor plans for $49
    https://www.peopleperhour.com/hourli...oor-plan/69131
    It's difficult for me to to judge which direction if any is the right path,
    I just cant really go into manual labor or restaurant hospitality over some weird globalist glitch.



  16. #56
    Member rogper's Avatar
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    Fortunately most of the projects have very specific requirements and art styles that aren't available online SO I think were ok for a few more years.



  17. #57
    One thing how to fight globalism is to make local trades. If you can find a way to contact any local business and do deals with them, it's not something a guy anywhere else in the world can compete with.
    CG enthusiast. Tools: Blender - Substance - Unity3D



  18. #58
    That's true, a few of the local news stations are recently utilizing
    a lot of new 3d intros for segments that someone local probably sold them on.
    I just realized that site I linked is peopleperhour.com,
    so perhaps hopefully the bottom hasn't fallen out of archvis yet
    "He models and renders a real house for equivalent ten bags of potato chips!?"
    Last edited by 3dcgfx; 20-Feb-18 at 07:57.



  19. #59
    Something else to consider: a number of people with super-low rates are *not* making a living out of it. They are doing this as a side-line with living expenses handled by a day job, or another person's income. Or they are just futzing around and trying to make some cash at the same time. Or they have *zero* idea on how to run a business (y'know - things like a budget, taxes...) and are charging those rates to try to get clients regardless if they're actually making money out of it. The latter are typically only around for a year or two, maybe three at the outside. They'll close up shop for a few years and go to a day job. Meanwhile a new crop will replace them doing the same thing.



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