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  1. #81



  2. #82
    Originally Posted by pitiwazou View Post
    30 000 cubes with 100 vertices?
    Ups, not, only eight vertices. I will try, but I don't think that I would see a lot of diference with 100 vertices cube. Houdini is near to death right now, modo crashes... the only difference could be that max give better perfomance than blender. I want to say is that maya is the only one that can support that amount of cubes, and yeah, it's good. But we shouldn't pick the only software that support that scene and tell "blender perfomance is bad". But is good try to handle this type of scenes.

    Anyway, I will try with the new desgraph if it possible.
    Last edited by DcVertice; 13-Jan-18 at 06:27.



  3. #83
    Member pitiwazou's Avatar
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    There is a big difference between 8 vertices and 100 on 30 000 objects!

    I have a quadro M6000 and blender is at 1-2 fps, it's not good at all.
    Try with your 1060, you should have different results.

    I hope the depthgraph will give us better performances.



  4. #84
    After make the test I can tell you pitiwazou that the M6000 have some problem with blender. You must report it like a bug or talk with developers because with my 1060 I can work with blender and that 30000 cubes with 98 vertices. It's not perfect, but I obtain 8-9 fps and the program works.

    Something that I cannot tell with houdini or modo. In the case of houdini maybe import the objects is not the proper way to work, but houdini is really dead with it. Modo, after ┐hours? to import the meshes go really slow, 0,2fps maybe



  5. #85
    Member pitiwazou's Avatar
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    You can work with 8-9 fps? I can't.

    After, yes maybe the Quadro is not really well supported, but with this test, I have 200 fps on Maya.
    A really big difference.
    Maya uses direct X of course so we can't really compare.
    Will see with the new depthgraph.



  6. #86
    Originally Posted by pitiwazou View Post
    You can work with 8-9 fps? I can't.

    After, yes maybe the Quadro is not really well supported, but with this test, I have 200 fps on Maya.
    A really big difference.
    Maya uses direct X of course so we can't really compare.
    Will see with the new depthgraph.
    Maya use directX in macOS and linux?



  7. #87
    I don't know if 30 000 objects of 100 polys is making sense.
    Generally, we will use fewer objects with more polys.
    So I made a test scene with :
    3 cubes of around 100 000 polys each.
    10 cubes of 10 000
    100 cubes of 1000
    600 cubes of 100
    Each time, it is a different mesh. It gave me a scene of 500 000 polys.

    Such a scene will be lighten by a sun. So, I just changed default lamp to have a sun.

    At this point, I obtained 30 fps for EEVEE and 34 for Clay engine. I have a titan black.

    I made a group of each order and added group instances the opposite way.
    2 group instances of 600 cubes of 100.
    10 group instances of 100 cubes of 1000.
    100 group instances of 10 cubes of 10 000.

    I obtained 5,5 fps with EEVEE and 20 fps for Clay engine.
    Unless you are doing a crowd simulation, 100 GI of 10000 polys is not pertinent.
    Without, I am around 14 fps for EEVEE and 32 for Clay engine.
    But 713 meshes, 500 000 polys and 112 groups instances, it does not correspond to impressive numbers.

    We have to admit that big scenes would require better performances. There was no texture or armature or modifier or particles used in my scene.
    But I don't use a quadro. Currently, we have absolutely no view layer passes to optimize display of a massive scene.
    There is no way to display a group or collections as bounding boxes or wireframe.
    Groups instances display is probably not optimized yet.
    Such a massive scene with real buildings and characters would probably be split into several, re-assembled by compositing.
    At least, it would be split into several view layers.We don't know how viewport compositor could handle it.

    So, if bad fps performance continues, maybe it would not be such a big deal after completion of 2.8 project.



  8. #88
    Well, here are some things to consider:

    1, Maya's performance proves that scene graph which handles large amounts of individual nodes while retaining reasonable frame rates is possible. Maya has been known as one of the best packages around when it comes to handling complexity of many individual scene nodes.

    2, That being said, pretty much all other software suffers from the same thing - 3 000 separate meshes consisting of 1000 polys each will perform a lot worse than single 3 000 000 poly mesh. And when it comes to this issue, Blender performs on average, not below average. So when someone says that Blender is unusable because this, then it indirectly implies that all other packages suffering from the same thing, such as 3ds Max, are unusable too. Yet, 3ds Max has been widely used in high end production for decades.

    So to conclude, while it definitely can (and should) be improved, right now, the performance with many scene nodes is just average, not significantly bad. It's just that Maya is way above average in this particular case.



  9. #89
    Member Hadriscus's Avatar
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    It goes beyond that : most of the time, "huge scenes" are composed using proxies (standins in Arnold lingo) and/or alembic archives, which makes scenes lighter (no rigs, simplified representation in viewport, etc), and Blender does not have all these tools. It's simply not thought for very big scenes.



  10. #90
    Originally Posted by rawalanche View Post
    2, That being said, pretty much all other software suffers from the same thing - 3 000 separate meshes consisting of 1000 polys each will perform a lot worse than single 3 000 000 poly mesh. And when it comes to this issue, Blender performs on average, not below average. So when someone says that Blender is unusable because this, then it indirectly implies that all other packages suffering from the same thing, such as 3ds Max, are unusable too. Yet, 3ds Max has been widely used in high end production for decades.

    So to conclude, while it definitely can (and should) be improved, right now, the performance with many scene nodes is just average, not significantly bad. It's just that Maya is way above average in this particular case.
    I think that it's important remark this. The only problems that I see in reality are

    - edit 500k+ triangles meshes
    - don't have a proxy solution system
    - maybe that we don't have a "LODs" system in viewport. Like link a low poly mesh to a highpoly when you are not editing. SImilar to a proxy mesh where you only see the decimated mesh until render.
    Last edited by DcVertice; 13-Jan-18 at 13:30.



  11. #91
    Cubes.jpg
    Shock! 3ds max teapots assault peaceful b-cube!

    Here's what i have. I created this "scene" in max using paint object tool. I was bored when polycount reached 49 mln i decided to export this garbage into blender. After 5 minutes or so blender was able to open this "scene". For some reason after export blender selects all exported objects, which maybe makes sense with a bunch of trees or a house, but i wish there was some checkbox to prevent selection of newly imported assets in the import settings. The scene almost crashed, but i managed to tap A, and held my breath for a while... The result shown on a picture above. In 3ds max framrate was around 50-100 fps most of the time, and dropped to 30-40 in wire on shaded mode, i could pick a random teapot and move it around just fine. Blender held this scene in 8-20 fps range, but when i turned wireframe performance dropped to 1-0.1 fps, there wasn't any luck with moving objects around, they were moving with huge delay and i can't deal with that)

    But testing with procedural geometry isn't that practical, because when you add lights, cameras, materials, those fps numbers will shrink significantly, and i know which software will fail earlier)

    - Introduction of a feature like Adaptive degradation from 3ds max may improve performance in large scenes. Link with an explanation how it works:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJGmpHlmDUc

    - Feature like Lods in Cinema 4d may improve performance even more. But this must work in conjunction with some good procedural poly reduction with clear and simple setup scheme, otherwise i bet that people won't bother messing with it if Lod setup will take more than 2-3 clicks.
    Link:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d669gK0wjY8

    - I don't know about 500k polys, for me reasonable limit per model is ~25 000 polygons + 1 iteration of Subsurf, which result in ~100 000 polygons, anything higher than this turns tweaking points into 10 fps sloppy movement, tweaking with soft selection drops fps to 5, turning "Adjust cage to modifier" (awesome feature i don't know how to model without it with that nasty cage) eats roughly 50% of performance and fps drops to 2-3 fps. My Specs are: i7 3770k at 4.5Ghz, 32Gb Ram, Gtx1070 i know this isn't top notch, but i wonder how students suffering with their notebooks with some mid range discrete adapters like 1050/950m.
    So Edit mode requires speed improvements.
    Adjust cage to modifier feature requires speed improvements.
    Manipulation with large array of elements in edit mode with Subsurf modifier could be 2-3 times faster.

    - Also i remember one neat little tool from Cinema 4d which is called Magnet, it works basically like soft selection, but also allows to move elements along normals. I know that there is sculpting but it's not that convenient to jump between sculpt and edit mode only to tweak things with move brush. So soft selection could have an ability to tweak mesh not only in screen space but also along normals.
    https://youtu.be/AUnBwXacWeY?t=186

    -Open subdivs not working in edit mode? Nice trolling. seems like feature isn't there yet to fully benefit from it during modeling. Need to wait until it will be fully implemented.

    Hope someone will endure reading that)
    Last edited by TheGrom; 13-Jan-18 at 16:40.



  12. #92
    I still thinking that some users have problem in their pcs in particular. I can edit mesh with 25.000 vertices and 1subd without problems in my laptop...



  13. #93
    - Also i remember one neat little tool from Cinema 4d which is called Magnet, it works basically like soft selection, but also allows to move elements along normals. I know that there is sculpting but it's not that convenient to jump between sculpt and edit mode only to tweak things with move brush. So soft selection could have an ability to tweak mesh not only in screen space but also along normals.
    https://youtu.be/AUnBwXacWeY?t=186

    You can do that with alt+s in the edit edit move along normals. No need to go into sculpt mode for that
    Last edited by srikanth0126; 13-Jan-18 at 20:57.



  14. #94
    - maybe that we don't have a "LODs" system in viewport. Like link a low poly mesh to a highpoly when you are not editing. SImilar to a proxy mesh where you only see the decimated mesh until render.
    - Feature like Lods in Cinema 4d may improve performance even more. But this must work in conjunction with some good procedural poly reduction with clear and simple setup scheme, otherwise i bet that people won't bother messing with it if Lod setup will take more than 2-3 clicks.
    Link:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d669gK0wjY8
    That's the kind of stupid situation that we ended up when people are saying stupid things in dev meeting :
    "We will improve this for Blender and Cycles UI, later."
    or
    "People will not understand if it is possible viewport why it does not work with the renderer."
    or
    "Only people making games are interesting by that."

    The feature is already present in 2.79. But it is restricted to Blender Game UI.
    In fact, it is in Blender since 2.70. But it is not be possible to use it only for the viewport if you are working on a Cycles scene.
    https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/D...me_Development



  15. #95
    Originally Posted by DcVertice View Post
    I still thinking that some users have problem in their pcs in particular. I can edit mesh with 25.000 vertices and 1subd without problems in my laptop...
    Me too, but anything higher than that result in jittery discreet inaccurate tweaking. On previous page i posted a comparison of 3ds max vs blender viewport. 3ds max was able to handle 1mln poly mesh in edit poly with soft selection turned on, blender simply crashed. End of story.

    Originally Posted by srikanth0126 View Post
    - Also i remember one neat little tool from Cinema 4d which is called Magnet, it works basically like soft selection, but also allows to move elements along normals. I know that there is sculpting but it's not that convenient to jump between sculpt and edit mode only to tweak things with move brush. So soft selection could have an ability to tweak mesh not only in screen space but also along normals.
    https://youtu.be/AUnBwXacWeY?t=186

    You can do that with alt+s in the edit edit move along normals. No need to go into sculpt mode for that
    It's slightly faster, but why it cant be part of a tweaking process like Holding Alt in tweak mode and dragging up or down? Anyway there is also custom curve editor in cinema inside that magnet tool settings) while blender uses presets for proportional editing.

    Originally Posted by zeauro View Post
    That's the kind of stupid situation that we ended up when people are saying stupid things in dev meeting :
    "We will improve this for Blender and Cycles UI, later."
    or
    "People will not understand if it is possible viewport why it does not work with the renderer."
    or
    "Only people making games are interesting by that."

    The feature is already present in 2.79. But it is restricted to Blender Game UI.
    In fact, it is in Blender since 2.70. But it is not be possible to use it only for the viewport if you are working on a Cycles scene.
    https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/D...me_Development
    64kb will be enough for everything(c) game developers are endangered species, it's hard to encounter one nowdays) But who might thought that people will be making games still in 2018? And viewport performance who needs that? we are modeling sending transform matrixes in command line!



  16. #96
    Originally Posted by zeauro View Post
    The feature is already present in 2.79. But it is restricted to Blender Game UI.
    In fact, it is in Blender since 2.70. But it is not be possible to use it only for the viewport if you are working on a Cycles scene.
    https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/D...me_Development
    I told the same proposal when I see the new feature of LODs for game engine and nobody take it seriusly when it's really useful to make big scenes. And like you tells, it's already present.



  17. #97
    Originally Posted by TheGrom View Post
    Me too, but anything higher than that result in jittery discreet inaccurate tweaking. On previous page i posted a comparison of 3ds max vs blender viewport. 3ds max was able to handle 1mln poly mesh in edit poly with soft selection turned on, blender simply crashed. End of story.
    In my tests it's slow, but don't crash never.



  18. #98
    Originally Posted by DcVertice View Post
    In my tests it's slow, but don't crash never.
    what os you are using? i heard that blender may work faster on linux, but i'm on pc with win 7.



  19. #99
    Originally Posted by TheGrom View Post
    what os you are using? i heard that blender may work faster on linux, but i'm on pc with win 7.
    macOS, but i'm sure that made similar test over windows 7 and don't have any problem.

    anyway, if you find some crahs the best is report the bug to developers.



  20. #100
    Member Toka's Avatar
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    Hey I only just stumbled onto this video a moment ago. Looks like the conversation is well advanced already. Some of this has probably been discussed at length but thought I would leave a comment as I found the video interesting.

    I can’t really quibble much with any of it regarding the Maya animation feature comparisons. Actual true animation layers would be great. I never noticed having so many difficult issues with dynamic linking and parenting in Blender in the past. I’d need to look at it again. Perhaps I just blasted through things at the time and was distracted with other issues.

    An interactive timeline would be nice too but I think there is an add on for this ? I just got used to having the dopesheet in a strip at the bottom of the screen next to the timeline. I do like the ease and click click clean precision of the Blender dope sheet though. It's great when you want total clarity. The Maya timeline can feel a bit too free form to me sometimes and I often need to check in to the graph editor to see what might be happening.

    Actually thinking about it. I would say I tend to miss the Blender dope sheet far more in Maya than I miss the Maya timeline in Blender. If that makes sense.
    Last edited by Toka; 23-Jan-18 at 08:59.



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