A MODO artist learns Blender [Newest video: #7 Parenting]


(zeauro) #21

Blender needs many improvements of viewport display. Highlighting is a good exemple of that.
Except loop-cut, vertex slide, knife, I think that no default modeling tools have overlays.
Blender does not have pre-selection highlighting. But we survive to this situation.
It is not difficult to zoom to a decent focus to distinguish enough components to be sure to select the right one.

Rotation for circle select is a frequent user request. Nobody disagrees that would be better.
I always prefered lasso select to it. It is not modal operator that request a quit action to unlock view navigation.

3 select modes can be active at same time. In fact, it was the way mesh editing was before 2.35 release.
http://archive.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-235a/mesh-editing-rewrite/index.html
During 2.4X series, number of mesh tools and modifier was increased.
During 2.5x series, because of new UI, focus was on making basic things working in order to test the rest (new animation system…).
During 2.6x series, a new system with supported Ngons, finally newer tools, integration of 2.5x addons as basics …
During 2.7x series, looking how other ones do things, making plans for 2.8x…
Pattern selection was added in blender recently because it was suggested by modo user.

Blender has an old way to do things that can appear tough to a modo user.
But it is not a bad modeling app. Its select menu is not poor.
Selection can be bounded by seams, relative to material indexes or vertex groups.
People expect probably this to be more discoverable with double click instead of L, Shift L, Ctrl L.
Like xrg said it probably needs new design paradigms that scale and it is also an area prisoner of old keymap.


(zeauro) #22

It reminds me this feature introduced in 2.71.
https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Release_Notes/2.71/Modeling
Maybe it is related.


(so3Datel) #23

totally agree about selection and rotate viewport, and about convert between vertices\edges\polys, it is not comfortable

p.s. you can add shortcut to vertices\edges\polys - Ctrl+Tab - RMB click on vertex - Add Shortcut
and you can use vertices\edges\polys at same time - Select vertex mode icon in Header > Shift+LMB Edge mode icon> Shift+LMB Face mode icon (same with manipulators icons)


(colkai) #24

Meant to add, switching to Left mouse button select made my life a whole lot easier. :slight_smile:


(Chris Offner) #25

You’re right… it’s really strange - I cannot reproduce the behaviour shown in my video now either. But it happened to me all the time during that Blender session, not just during the recording. It’s not happening now anymore though, even though I didn’t change anything nor reset blender to factory settings. If it comes up again and I can reproduce it, I’ll file a bug report.

Thanks Julian! :slight_smile:


(Chris Offner) #26

Just to document this in here as well because any and all information like this can be interesting and valuable.
Elsewhere someone commented:

about the highlighting of selections. I think it’s actually better, because it better shows what will actually be modified. Just imagine a case where you accidentally extruded the edges. When only edges are highlighted you’ll easily miss the “lose” edges. With Blender you’ll immediately see if the edges actually belong to the polygon.

The thing is, in MODO tools are context-sensitive depending on what selection mode you’re in. So if you are in Edge Selection mode and hit Extrude (or Shift+X), MODO will fire up the Edge Extrude tool.
If you’re in Polygon Selection mode and hit the same button (“Extrude”) or shortcut (Shift+X again), MODO will fire the Polygon Extrude tool instead.

https://giant.gfycat.com/DeficientSpottedCats.gif

I find this behaviour highly intuitive and clever.
It allows you to achieve exactly the behaviour you want and expect, by using a single button and/or shortcut.

The same goes for other tools like Bevel.

Depending on whether or you are in Vertex, Edge or Polygon (=Face) selection mode, MODO will activate the Vertex Bevel, Edge Bevel or Polygon Bevel (just called “Bevel”) tool when you click “Bevel” or hit the B hotkey:

https://fat.gfycat.com/SandySimpleFlyinglemur.gif


#27

Extrude Individual is what you looking for in Blender behaves same as Modo just needs a shortcut.
Bevel you hit Ctrl+B and you have options to bevel edges or vertices only (read options at the bottom header).


(MmAaXx) #28

ctrl+shift+b to bevel vertex btw…
I really prefer how Blender works, when I works in maya and I have to deal with the type of selection I have to use properly certain tools, thet really bother me.

btw good vids!


(Ace Dragon) #29

Regarding the context sensitive tools, I could see that being smart in some cases and simply throwing people off in others (sure it makes more sense sometimes for tools to work different depending on mode, but it can also mean having to switch modes all the time during a modeling session).

The example regarding Modo’s beveling behavior seems to show a good example of just that.


(xrg) #30

Blender you learn the handful of menus, and can bring them up and use them regardless of context:

Ctrl+V = Vertex tools;
Ctrl+E = Edge tools;
Ctrl+F = Face tools;
W = Specials (things such as subdivide)

So if you’re in face select and want to do a vertex bevel you can just hit Ctrl+V, select bevel and it’ll do a vertex bevel even if you have a bunch of faces selected. Just a different approach really; I can see pros and cons of both Blender’s way and Modo’s way.

@ramboblender
Alt+E gives extra extrude options including extrude individual faces if you weren’t aware (I learned it a lot later than I wish I had anyway).


(Chris Offner) #31

Great points, thank you. I will make a comparison of efficiency between MODO’s and Blender’s Bevel tools soon.

Just now I came across the different behaviours between MODO’s and Blender’s Vertex Bevel tools.

In MODO, I get this type of nice rounded effect if I use a Round Level of higher than 0:

However, the resulting n-gons surfaces look artifacty unless I then bevel them in to create some ‘support geometry’:

Blender’s works differently. You cannot get the same type of rounding effect on the edges as in MODO but the surfaces are clean. Here’s me using Blender’s Vertex Bevel and importing the resulting mesh into MODO:

Now on this example, the resulting shape looks just like what you get in MODO with a Round Level of 0. But the Profile option in Blender’s Vertex Bevel tool does make use of the additional subdivisions on the newly created corner surfaces:

It pushes in/out the newly created surfaces. But the edges between the originally selected vertices remain straight.

Personally I find both useful and would like to see both tools include the other’s capabilities. I have also proposed this to the MODO devs now.

If I had to make a choice I’d say that MODO’s tool is probably more versatile though because the nice edge rounding you can achieve with it is something I need more frequently than the bulging in/out effect that Blender’s Profile option does.


(Pitiwazou) #32

Not sure if it’s good to compare blender and modo and try to have the same behavior on Blender.

For example, your last post, I never in 16 yers of 3D (maya, max, blender, XSI) used that, I don’t see the point.

You should try to work on blender without trying to have your habits from modo.
Making comparaison can be good to see the difference, but only for that.


(Chris Offner) #33

The point is: How easily and with how few clicks can you achieve a certain shape in software X?

How would you create the shape I showed in my MODO example in Blender - and how many clicks/actions does it take you?

I hope these posts don’t provoke defensive behaviour in here. This is not a “I want Blender to become MODO” thing.
I’m merely trying to assess which tool allows me to get to a certain result faster and more efficiently. I’m sure there will be shapes that can be more easily achieved with Blender’s tools and you can be sure that I will point those out as well when I encounter them! :slight_smile:


(Pitiwazou) #34

I understand no worry :wink:

I also search to make tools as simple and fast as possible.

An addon we are working on to simplify modifiers !

Don’t know if modo has something like that.


(Chris Offner) #35

Oh man, Blender’s modifiers are so awesome from what I’ve seen already. When I cover Blender’s modifiers, that’s when MODO will be the one to take notes.

MODO has arrays and you can clone or instance items with them in a certain pattern (grid array, radial array, along a curve…) but they’re destructive, i.e. once you drop the tool, they’re done and you cannot change the number or spacing anymore. Then they’re simply separate objects that you can only move manually.

Quick examples:
Instance Array

Radial Array


So this is something where Blender seems to be a lot more flexible and versatile! But again, I cannot stress this enough: This is not about “us vs. them”! It is about “How can we learn from and enrich our own methods by looking at alternative approaches?” On all parties! :slight_smile:


(Pitiwazou) #36

The circular array is really nice !


(zeauro) #37

I would do a bevel and then a smooth.

Bevel’s developer studied a lot of cases to make bevel tool less awful than what it was in 2.4x.
https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Howardt/Bevel

Yes! array modifier in blender is pretty cool.

Edit: This video is almost ten years old.
http://mattebb.com/weblog/array-modifier-demo/


(Chris Offner) #38

It is. What’s nice is that you can control most attributes directly hands-on via handles in the GL viewport. The only thing I use the UI for is the Count:

But I really do wish it would remain procedural so that even after dropping the tool and doing something else, you could adjust the radial array after the fact. Which currently in MODO you cannot.


(Chris Offner) #39

I just compared “Select Next Active” (Ctrl+Shift+Numpad(+)) in Blender with MODO’s “Select Next” (Arrow Up).

MODO very clearly comes out on top. Blender fails to find a plausible next edge to select way too often - even in cases where the next expected edge is quite obvious:


(0rAngE) #40

Chris, good effort in getting the discussion going. And props on being able to go this long without starting a flame war :slight_smile:

Oh man, another Wazou bomb!!!
Love how this looks! Can’t wait for the release of this thing :slight_smile:

This is what UX is all about!!!
Blender devs, take notes!