Thanks Glen, that was good, informative read.
I especially liked the part about user’s self depreciating comments. I to go by the beeifl that anything is achievable if you want it enough.
cheers
I think it’s a nice piece. Highly opinionated, but with a common opinion.
Again I’m confussed about the words art, artists and 3d artist.
When I attended art colledge it was very easy, computers where there to make the bill, there was no CG, at least not in the Netherlands.
Entering the world of CG there are lots of people claiming to be artists. And I know it’s my mindset and probably because I’m not native english, but thinking about artists I’m thinking of vanGogh, Picasso, Gilbert & George and hell even Jeff Koons can be an artist to me. For the rest they are all skilled people. Pixar is full of skilled people, but I’ll be damned to call any of them artist.
In that sense I don’t realy like the document. It’s to pretentious. Not all beginning blender users need to become or need to aspire to become Leonardo da Vinci. But if you do, then it’s a realy good document.
If you make art for a living you are an artist. Pixar has artists, technicians, software engineer even. That’s why they’re doing such great stuff.
Leonardo was a genius the likes of which is seen once every 2 or 3 centuries. Even the other artists you named (Picasso, Van Gogh, etc) did not measure up to a mind like leonardo’s, nevermind Blender newbies…
When I say artist I’m talking about anyone that makes something of some aesthetic value. There are reasons why something looks aesthetically pleasing and artists understand why.
“3D artist” in the CG world refers to people like us that use 3D modeling software, and make something of some aesthetic value. I’m trying to make the point about how important it is that you know as much about design and color as possible, simply becuase I don’t see that spoken of enough here in the message boards, considering how important it is.
I like the part about cheating. I’ve always wondered if cheating was “kosher”… I guess it is!
Hehe, yeah. I don’t really care how someone pulled off an effect (unless I want to duplicate it), just as long as it’s looks cool. But the author and client will care how long it takes to render :).
When I say artist I’m talking about anyone that makes something of some aesthetic value. There are reasons why something looks aesthetically pleasing and artists understand why.
“3D artist” in the CG world refers to people like us that use 3D modeling software, and make something of some aesthetic value. I’m trying to make the point about how important it is that you know as much about design and color as possible, simply becuase I don’t see that spoken of enough here in the message boards, considering how important it is.[/quote]
Right, here in the Netherlands when working with aesthetics we have ontwerpers (designers), artiesten (entertainers) & kunstenaars (artists) .
Artists make art and designers make design and entertainers entertain.
Artists are buzy making cultural statements, designers and entertainers try to make things look good. Work of Artists end up in a museum, and work of designers and entertainers end up in your hand or are entertaining.
That’s I think where my confussion comes from, 'cause I don’t see alot of 3d software makings ending up in musea. So to me none of the makers of say Toy Story are artists, they are entertainers.
What I find a pitty on your document, although it’s a good document as all agree, is that it put’s image aesthetic as most important for the beginner of the user of blender “…you know as much about design and color as possible…considering how important it is.”
I think I understand where this comes from, but I don’t agree.
When making animations with a 3d package it can be equal important to know everything about movement. I could write the same document you did but remove the color study with dansclasses. Claiming that you’d need to have had dansclasses to be a good animator etc. Although it might help understanding movement, only a few at pixar are ballerinas.
Being a TD is a very important job at an animation studio, being able to rig a model, and understanding of how the software works etc, is equal important to understanding aesthetics.
I have another personal dislike when people say you need to be able to draw to be able to 3d. I can’t draw, and it’s mostly people who can saying it 
It sounds like an old man saying you need to be able to calculate by head, but nobody does that anymore and no project suffers from it. I agree you need to understand the principles.
But maybe you are right that the aesthetics and the arts are under valued at the elysiun board, art is not encouradged in any way, only skills, and then even mainly only the entertaining image skills.
@Loken & metsys
No, i drawing is no option for me, accept it.
Hell, currently i am even thinking about stop working with blender, although i know very well how to model things.
Reason is… time prohibits it at the moment and this will increase in the near future (=next 4 years) if i am really going to do my PhD.
Even if i dont know how to draw, i know very well how i could learn it even without a book. But this process would consume so much time which i cannot allowed to be wasted, otherweise i am fucked for my future life.
I learned how to model stuff without having a look at a single tutorial in detail and i managed to do quite nice things.
For something like drawing you have to be in the mood as well. You cannot draw something great by brute force. At least it always worked like this for modeling 3D stuff.
There’s the next problem… i am defentily NOT in the mood to do “unproductive” stuff like drawing at the moment and this will stay like this for the next years.
But anyway many thanx for your guidance and help 
Whatever:
Just because Toy Story or other CG works of art are not in museums yet does not lessen their value as art.
I think art is entertainment. If it has other social significance in the long run then it’s a bonus. Art is decoration. Decoration that can be used for many things, one of them being communication (what most graphic/multimedia designer use it for). If some Art Historian somewhere decides that your art deserves to hang in a museum then all the better.
AN][ARES, I understand the whole not having time thing. You know your priorities better than I do. If you were more interested in drawing, I would say you have to make the time. 5 minutes a day is enough to continue learning, so long as its from observation. But to each his own.
Best of luck on your studies, and try to find at least a little time to Blend. 
If you like it, then it must be very good. 
There is already CG art in museums. They are aimed on cultural reflection, not entertainment. And although art can be entertainment or entertaining I don’t think it’s vice versa. Miami Vice is also entertaining but no art. As is the circus. But I guess what you say makes sense, Leonardo did not make art, he did some decorative work that later got labeled.
Same goes for communication, communication is not art, although some art can communicate. My mom calling me to tell me she did some shopping is no art. Same as the front page of the NY times; no art. Skillfull people create those products and visuals and audios, with less or more estetics, but it’s no cultural reflection; thus no art. That’s how I understand art anyway. The rest is design, ordening, entertainment and decoration.
And I agree with Metsys that a good understanding of art will help creating 3d images. But I think it’s at most 1/3 of Those Learning 3D should take into account. Two more of these documents please!
Well whatever, I agree with you that not all people who use Blender set out to become “artists”. We have guys like Theeth who use it to learn to program, guys who use it with MakeHuman and only learn to animate, guys who like to model and nothing else. That is all well and good as the CG industry requires all these specialists (modellers, animators, technical directors, shader programmers, sofware engineer). I absolutely see your point here and Blender is a great tool to cut one’s teeth in any of these fields, being open source, stable and well supported by a varied community.
Where I disagree with you is in your definition of art. From Webster’s Collegiate:
Art: skill acquired by experiences, study or observations. An occupation requiring knowledge or skill. The conscious use of skill and creative imagination esp. in the production of aesthetic objects.
Cultural significance is something art acquires once it is put out there and it is another subject entirely best left to another thread.
Now if you are working at Pixar and your skill is to program beautiful shaders. You are contributing your skill to making a movie. An artful object. You are an artist.
As for drawing, it is a tool, a skill which can be used to communicate. If you have this tool your abilities to communicate visuallly are enhanced. I do not think Metsys is saying you need to draw like Leonardo, but drawing regularly, to any level, will exercise a part of your brain which is used to think visually. Blender is a tool used to produce works with a strong visual component.
There are plenty of people who made great art who could not draw very well. Some composers do not play any musical instruments. Lots of musicians don’t read music. Weird shit happens sometimes. That’s the beauty of art. No?
Actually, I’d say that in that particular case, you would be a craftsman.
I tend to break it down like this:
work done for personal reasons = art
work done for commercial reasons = craft (that is, using artistic skill to create something for someone else)
It’s a fine line, but I do think that it is distinct.
Commercial Art perhaps?
An apple is an apple, art is art. Personal feelings about semantics aside, even artists need to feed and clothe themselves. I don’t think Michelangelo thought any less of his work in the sistine chapel because he was getting paid for it.
Hi Bussman, I’m glad you understand what I’m trying to say.
I’ll have another go at art As I find your POV’s good to read.
My dentist has skill acquired by experiences, study or observations. An occupation requiring knowledge or skill. The conscious use of skill and creative imagination esp. in the production of aesthetic objects. and I don’t consider him an artist. Webster is wrong. At least to general.
I think art is more in the line of what Fweeb says.
For art, the made work is the goal, not something you want to do with the made work.
The Incredibles is made to make money, the shaders are made to pretent to be a material. So the people making that are buzy with their craft.
Art is there to be it self. No other reason for being made, then to reflect culture/ current time/ teitgeist.
Fashion for example is a good art. They are not clothes to wear, it’s a sample of time. It depicts current estetics.
I don’t know what Michelangelo thought of his work, he was not making art, he was doing a paint job. We find his work depicting estetics of his time and that’s why we call his work art today.
Anyway, that’s how I see art. Otherwise we will get art inflation, and anybody who makes anything with creative imagination will make art.
yeah i agree on some points.
but art is arts.the artist is just a “tool” ,a filter to the world,translating ideas and reality,in visual language.
when he creates,he dont thinks too mutch of making it for money,he just put his ideas to paper,later he can think of selling his works for feeding needs.
most artist lived their life in misery.
thats why best art is created by people supported by sponsors,they just create,and dont worry about less significant things.
nowadays Commercial Art is reality…
I don’t know about your dentist but mine is strictly concerned with my health. Aesthetics in this case would be a byproduct of having good teeth to chew my food with. My dentist’s main concern is purely medical and he does not consider himself an artist making aesthetic objects, nor do I.
As I replied to Fweeb, this discussion enters the realm of semantic personal preference. You wish to reserve the useage of the word art for certain pieces that fit rigorous criteria while using synonyms for art to describe other work done for hire and such. That is your choice and you are entitled to it. That is why we have more than one word to express similar ideas.
The lowly animators and others toiling at Pixar don’t care much about the box-office. They are paid a salary no matter what. Their goal is the movie, that little shot they can lay claim to or what not. The millions of dollars in potential revenue is of little consequence to the making of that shot. That’s for Steve Jobs and the accountants to worry about.
This is how I see it: You call yourself an artist. You start making art (for whatever reason: to make a statement, to get paid, because it’s fun). You put your art out there if you wish others to be exposed to your art or to collect your pay or again just because you think it’s fun. If it has any cultural impact or not is beyond the artist’s control. Maybe after a week or 100 years it will be recognised as Art with a capital A or Fine Art or whatever they decide to call it then. in the meantime it is just your art.
art is a very old word with a fluid definition; What it means is highly context dependant. A discussion on “what is art” in the abstract is like the water in a toilet, circling around as it flushes out the nuggets of your, uhm, wisdom
And therein lies the rub. Just because I consider commercial art to more craft and less art, doesn’t mean that I think any less of commercial art. Comparing commercial art to fine art is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they’re both still fruit, but there are distinct differences.
In many ways, for me, fine art is about the process whereas commercial art is about the product.
In that scenario, you still have the liberty to call yourself an artist because the work you’ve created is for yourself. The second you do work for someone else - building someone else’s vision - it ceases to be your art. That’s commercial art. You become the tool that someone else wields to bring their idea to life. There’s nothing wrong or demeaning about that, I just feel it’s in a different class from work you create for yourself.