Blender 2.8 viewport updates


(royor) #394

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(Thinking Polygons) #395

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(royor) #396

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(English is not my native language) #397

I think that you perfectly know what you are doing when you write things in the way you express them, and you know perfectly well the reaction you will get in the forum. I have expressed many times in the forum that I do not like Pie Menus and that I do not feel comfortable with it, and nobody ever felt attacked or offended.

(Thinking Polygons) #398

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(English is not my native language) #399

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(zanzio) #400

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(zanzio) #401

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(the_motionblur) #402

BTW - has anyone heard if there’s going to be a shading mode for retopology with the viewport update?
Something like RetopoFlow, Modo or ZBrush have - meaning: Semitransparent polygons overlayed over the base topology. A shader that doesn’t bury polygons underneath the surface and fades out backfacing polygons/vertices so that they don’t interupt workflow on a complex model, either.

Crossposten from another thread:

It sems everything needed for this is already in Blender some way or another but it’s never been implementd into the standard editmode.

(William) #403

Retopology in general would be good to properly support in Blender.

To support this well, we both need better tools and further viewport changes. It’s not really the focus right now, but it’s something that should ideally be looked at.

If/when we get around to it, I think the best way to support Retopology well, would be a different mode, specifically for it. Just like Sculpt Mode modifies meshes but in a different way, Rotopology Mode would do the same. The mode would display the mesh in the correct way, allow you to define another Object or Collection to retopologize, and allow for special tools that allow you to ‘paint’ topology onto your objects.

It’s a bigger project though, so don’t hold your breath.

(the_motionblur) #404

Yes - that would be really cool and I would absolutely be in favor of this (as gameart retopology is currently pretty much 60% of my workload). A dedicated retopo shader is the most important thing that could maybe even be achieved rather easily as well as a short term fix (?).
Most of the shortcomings in retopology can at least be somehow overcome. The viewport, really works against the user in that regard, though. You either have a modifier that needs to hover above the target meshes, that is buried partially inside the geometry or that has backfacing (and selectable!) geometry visible throughout the whole geometry. None of these is really ideal as the main thing with retopology is first and foremost two things:
1.Clearly seeing your new model on top of the underlying geo
2. Having a focused toolset that snaps new geometry onto the source meshes.

The toolset could certainly be better, or more streamlined and with a few more helpers - but for the bread and butter work it’s all there, basically. For a dedicated retopo Toolset there is RetopoFlow 2.0 as a comercial adon. And it does in fact have a LOT of the things needed. One of its biggest strengths is ironically one of my biggest gripes with it: You can’t use Blender’s regular toolset while using retopoflow.
It uses a dedicated viewport, has a really adequate shader for retopology and is able to project on any arbitrary set of meshes. It has dedicated (and really awesome) retopology brushes and a superb mirror mode. But as soon as you leave the Retopoflow ecosystem every one of the benefits is gone. The viewport and symmetry don’t work exactly the same way, projection is back to the standard limitations and especially the shader is gone.

I think if there was at least a retopology shader in the near future that would help a great deal until there can be an actual workflow update, later down the road.

Until then I think I still have to stick to Modo, there.

(Michael Knubben) #405

The ‘danger’ of a separate mode is that the designer of it might consider tools that are essential to me ‘modeling tools’ and leave them out. Would a viewport preset/workspace not serve the same purpose? Don’t get me wrong, I’m in favour of a new mode (for unwrapping as well), but I can see potential pitfalls of this approach.
The main thing here is having a viewport setting that makes the relationship between the retopology mesh and underlying mesh clear, and that can be as ‘easy’ as the transparency of Topogun or Retopoflow

(William) #406

Well, most of the good rotopo tools I’ve seen behave in a different way compared to regular modeling tools. They have special, higher level tools to modify the mesh flow.

That said, the display is a big important part of what would make retool work better. We even discussed doing something during the Code Quest to fix/improve the display of meshes for rotopo, but ran out of time.

There’s no good way to set up the viewport for rotopo currently, so it’d be great to do something here.

The main issue is one of design - how do we expose this? As a viewport thing? An object display setting? You’d only want it for one object, so it doesn’t fit well being a viewport shading setting.

(Pitiwazou) #407

Not really, F2, bsurface are in normal mode and are really useful to make retopo.
+1 to not have a retopo mode but a retopo template instead.

(William) #408

What’s a ‘retopo template’ ?

(Pitiwazou) #409

Application template, theme, UI, shading etc like they added on 2.8 for grease pencil for example.

(William) #410

I don’t think we need an entire template - we could just have a Workspace for it.

But the question remains, how to implement it? As a viewport setting, mode setting or object setting?

Currently, we have something called Hidden Wire - we’ve had this option for years. This was meant for retopo and can be enabled in Edit Mode -> Overlays. But it’s not a very good display and not very discoverable.

The retopo mesh gets lost inside the the object you are trying to retopo, and you can’t see the difference between wires that have faces, and just loose wires.

It’s also limiting that it only exists in Edit Mode. It means the retopo display goes away when you exit Edit Mode.

(Pitiwazou) #411

Yes I use it all the time, don’t know why people don’t use it.

I think, people could do their own template for retopology, it’s pretty easy now IMO.
What’s lacking is some base tools to start a retopo.
The new active poly tool can be enough for retopo in fact, just need something to start it on a reference like

If object selected > when clicking on the active tool, activate snap face, add shrinkwrap etc.

(the_motionblur) #412

Oh my … I don’t want to derail the discussion about how to best implement a retopo shader - but I’ve started posting up the most important tools from my perspective (for further down the line). Sorry - I’ll just post this as a “this would be cool if you ask me” and then write up a second post just for what I think a topo shader/setup might work (which is essentially showing how modo does it and then maybe derailing a little more towards how it could work in blender). Before that, though … Topo tools:

Modo sort of does the same thing, here. It uses basically all the existing tools from the repertoire and creates presets for them. In fact I can boil down Modo’s retopology workflow to four tools which carry most of my work:

  1. The topology pen
  2. surface snapping in regards to normal vectors, not only screen projection
  3. a standard line pen to create edges and connect them afterwards
  4. an edge ring tool that creates (spline)edge rings around geometry

The most versatile tool is the topology pen as it combines some very important functions in one preset without much need to switch over. Modo’s topopen is able to:

  • create single quads
  • extrude single edges
  • extrude a row of edges up to a certain degree
  • insert edge loops
  • slip edge loops
  • snap-weld vertices or edges within an adjustable distance.
  • move single vertices, edges or faces by simply click-dragging (no prior selection needed)

The standard pen tool simply creates connected polylines that can afterwards be connected to polypatches. Nothing overly fancy - mostly like Ctrl-clicking a vertex in blender. It’s just nice that shift-click starts a new polyline without the need to deselect or duplicate.

The third one is the ability to project geometry onto a surface without a modifier or a vertex-selection. Basically the surface normals dictate when geometry sticks to the surface of a mesh. Even if it is for example scaled down around the geometry:

The last one is a tool for tube-shaped geometry projecting a countour around the mesh. The countour can either be a set number of vertex cuts or a spline projection which can then be bridged with a flexible number of edges:

(William) #413

To be honest, the Hidden Wire display is really bad. We could make this so much better. We could:

  • Rename to Retopology Overlay
  • Make it so faces always display on top of the underlying surface, so it doesn’t get lost inside it.
  • Make faces display semi-transparent, so you can see difference between faces and loose edges.

But really it’d also be great if we could add tools, such as contours, a kind of polypen for drawing a path of quads, and so on - either in Edit Mode or a special Retopo mode