crazy times

General Forums Off-topic Chat
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-----------facts-------------

New Zealand has cut all diplomatic ties with Isreal.

earlier this year (or late last year) our goverment caught isreali spys in New Zealand trying to get New Zealand passports.

they have now been put in prison, and Isreal has denied that they were Isreali spys. (they were caught using a tetraplegics identity when trying to secure the passports)

Isreal which was one of our allies in the past, now has no diplomats in the country, and the closest dipolmats for the NZ government to talk to are in australia.

unfortunatly, co-inciding with this announcement, some people in NZ went to the cemetry and smashed a number of Isreali graves, and drew swastikas on their graves. its believed that this act was done as an insult to isreal, rather than being targeted at the particular graves.

-----------My opinion on the matter------------

i think that the NZ government is making the correct decision on cutting all diplomatic ties with Isreal. it sends a message to the Isreali government that they are loosing friends with their current political methods both within the middle east and across the world.

the grave smashing i think is pretty stupid. whether or not you hate a country, i think that respect is somthing that should be aheared to. i think its sad that it has come to that level in some peoples minds.

so farewell Isreali ties, may you come back when you decide to respect the world. hopefully things can be worked out, but its not my country’s responsibility to make the effort on it.

and if your gonna get spys at least make them smart enough not to get caught LOL

Alltaken

----edit, further information as i get it-----

the isreali spys were understood to be on an assasination mission.

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This is one of the stories i find hard to believe, especially the assasination thing. This is too perfect food for israel haters (again). I believe you check what you say/write, but I think the media is simply against Israel.

About Israel disrespecting the world: Since the world is explicitly disrespecting Israel (the latest announcement from Den Haag about the wall being illegal is one of the most ridiculous examples), I believe it’s the only option Israel has.

Same as killing Hamas leaders. All I can say is ‘Go Israel’.

Flamewar
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the assasination thing was like this.

Isreali spys came to our country in order to get NZ passports, NZ is considered an easy and friendly country, so boarder security against NZers is not normally as strong.

for example going to australia, i can get in almost as easily as an australian can.

so Isreal sent people to NZ to obtain passports, in order to go overseas and kill someone. if they got caught in this attempt, then NZ would be blamed for it.

hence the strong reaction from our government. framingour country puts 4 million people at risk from a retaliation attack. which IMO is the lowest thing any country (especially an allie) could do.

Nico
if you find it hard to believe then that is your opinion, but this is happening in my country, and sorry to say it but i am going to have to trust and respect my countries intelligence agencies, untill i am proven otherwise.

i do agree that it could possibly be untrue, but i will find that out over time, untill then i believe it, and untill then i trust my prime minister (who has been trustworthy in the past and is unlikely to do somthing like this lightly)

Alltaken

4

What is that supposed to mean? Are you saying it is okay to kill someone?

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I don’t say it could never be possible that Israel wants to kill somebody. Imagine the mission was to track down a terrorist attack, what should they do?
I don’t think they would do harm to NZ, so sneaking into NZ to prevent something horrible could be an appropriate method.

It’s just an idea, of course. I am not against war, I am not even against torture. If 9/11 could have been prevented by torturing 10 terrorists to death, wouldn’t that be ok?

The only thing Israel is doing ‘wrong’ is not to negotiate with terrorists, just as any other country.

My two cents.

Ah well, I guess this is going to be a long thread. So please be nice everybody. This could probably a discussion without personal attacks and burning Israel flags as avatars. :wink:

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What is that supposed to mean? Are you saying it is okay to kill someone?[/quote]

Indeed. Everything depends on the circumstance and the alternatives you have. Imagine you could kill a terrorist before he executes the attack. I would not hesitate a second (at least I hope so).

7

well if Isreal were trying to track down terrorists or some such “good” thing.

as a previous allie to isreal NZ would have helped them (if NZ were in agreement with the action)

so for it to happen in an underhanded political way, there is a lot of doubt as to what the intentions were.

but if a NZ passport were to be used in a killing (even of a terrorist leader, even if the NZ government agreed with it) the consequences to our country would be imense.

the NZ government i feel needed to act in such a harsh way, because the tarnishing of our name would potentially result in 10’s of thousands of people dead in my country, through indirect consequences of a possible Isreali assasination.

so its a big big mine feild of politics on this one.

whether the intetions were right or not on isreal’s part, the actions taken out were most definatly not.

Alltaken

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That would happen if the NZ government would be involved. So not informing NZ could be a protection, no?

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About Israel disrespecting the world: Since the world is explicitly disrespecting Israel (the latest announcement from Den Haag about the wall being illegal is one of the most ridiculous examples), I believe it’s the only option Israel has.

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about… Israel has been put ‘above the law’ always… all the rules that always applied to ANY other country in the WORLD were NEVER applied to israel… Now you talk of the world ‘disrespecting’ israel ?

As far as the wall goes… This kind of a wall would never have gotten so far in any other country… And at least let them put it on their side of the land… I don’t think it’s a weird court ruling…

I respect anyone’s opinion…but the world ‘disrespecting’ israel ?? Makes me rollover… three times…

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Indeed. Everything depends on the circumstance and the alternatives you have. Imagine you could kill a terrorist before he executes the attack. I would not hesitate a second (at least I hope so).

How do you know someone is a terrorist? What is the definition of terrorist? Someone who uses brutal force and harms others health and lifes to achieve their goals? Well, that definition applies to the Israel government too.

How can you ever know for sure that someone will execute an attack (at some undefined time in the future)? If you think you have enough evidence that he will, you can seize him and bring him before a court. If there is enough evidence he will be sentenced and the danger is banned.

What about the “colateral damages” of the killings, e.g. the children that died in recent missile attacks by the Israel army?

BTW, as far as I know, the Hamas leaders never did an assassination themselves. Possibly they sent the assassins. But you can not stop that by killing them. There will come others. Actually, there are coming a lot more, because the killing made a lot of people raging. I cannot see how this should stop the suicide assassinations.

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I agree this is not easy. But I guess it would have been ok to shoot down the planes of 9/11 for example. That would be killing and there would have been a collateral damage. All I say is that killing people can be the right decision.

This is always the most elegant solution, but not always applicable. The Allies simply had to walk over corpses to stop Hitler.

The problem is that Palestinians do not raise a real army. They are all civilians. Now anytime there is a military action between Israel and Palestinians Israel is blamed for killing civilians. I personally blame the dead children on the Palestinians themselves. I even believe they provoke situations like that.
I have no doubt that Israel tries to avoid killing innocent people at a very high cost.

I guess killing the leaders is far more effective than killing the thousands who follow. This will also keep the collateral damage low that you mentioned.

That makes no sense. I would also like to keep this thread clean of insults.

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md01 wrote:
I respect anyone’s opinion…but the world ‘disrespecting’ israel ?? Makes me rollover… three times…

That makes no sense. I would also like to keep this thread clean of insults.

What ? This was no insult… Alot of ppl could take what you wrote an insult… what do you expect… people are dying overthere man …

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Killing thousands of followers is of course no option. But not having that option does not justify killing the leaders.

The problem is that all killing can not eliminate the reason for the assassinations. That alone should be enough argument against it.

Those reasons have to be solved and overcome to stop the conflict. The negotiations about 10 years ago showed that this could be possible. Unfortunately Itzhak Rabin was killed and Ariel Sharon is a militarist who believes only in violence. Actually he seems to feel great hatred against Palestinians so I doubt that avoiding the death of innocents is a high priority to him.

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Barbarians. :<

(And I don’t mean the isrealis)

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What if the opposition’s (Palis) stated and demonstrated goal is to kill and destroy you nation and people? Occaisionally, they tell people that their goal is something else, but all actions and official statements say otherwise. The reason the Palis kill is because they want all the Jews to be dead. Period. Every time they have “agreed” to one accord or another, regardless of the level of Israeli concessions, they have immediately begun another round of terror attacks. Don’t be fooled into reaching for the candy held in one hand, when the hand behind the back holds an AK-47.

Definition of a terrorist: One who plans, engages in, or attempts to engage in terrorist actions.

Definition of terrorist actions: actions that deliberately target civilians, exclusively to harm them, in order to bring about either an overwhelming reponse from the opposition which can be turned into a PR victory (cf. Chechnya), or to induce enough fear in the civilian population that they essentially revolt against their current government and acceed to the terrorist demands (cf. Spain).

Clear enough?

And if you find that the morality of Pali suicide bombers which directly and completely target civilians compares in any way the regretable collateral damage associated with missile strikes against military targets (Hamas leadership), then you need an education in rudimentary ethics, morals, and “laws” of war.

Alltaken: as for Israeli spies attempting to obtain NZ passports. Bad move on their part. That was wrong, and they shouldn’t have done it. They’re in jail now as they should be. Indeed, that was a snub to NZ by the Israeli government. However, in your “facts” section, you stated that it is “believed” that the swastika bullshit was just a comment about the Israeli government, and not just rank anti-semitism. First, that should not have been under the fact section. Second, it’s just bullshit. People don’t express their displeasure with another government by violating sacred ground (which most folks consider grave sites to be), and promulgating symbols of genocide (which the swastika certainly is). It’s naked anti-semitism, and the people who say they “believe” otherwise are just trying to spin it so it doesn’t look as nasty as it really is.

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Actually Nico, those planes would of been shot down but due to Bush being a bloody puppet of the government, it didn’t happen.

But come on, the spies/assassins were caught. Now this shows who is at blame, Israel.

I think New Zealand did the correct thing on this matter.

Israel and Palestine have been at each others throats forever.
Now this next statement by me is slightly kidding, but equally serious on it’s part.

I say Nuke both countries, and get on with our lives.

Everytime I go to a news channel there’s something about those 2 damn countries killing each other.
Hopefully at the rate they’re going they’ll kill eachother off until neither is left. I like that option… but it’s taking too long. So I say every country lend them a hand and nuke them. I don’t care which is a holy land, or what not… get over it or die.

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You’ve just shown your ignorance of the situation. There is no such country as Palestine.

And actually, Bush is a puppet of the American people, who voted him into office and can vote him back out in November if they so choose. Bush is a puppet of the government? I’m sure how to even parse that statement.

18

What are the missile strikes good for except satisfying some small-minded militarists? As I stated before, they won’t end the suicide assassinations.

And the last part of your sentence applies to you as well. Rudimentary ethics and moral (and the 10 Commandments if you believe in those) should teach you not to kill people and therefore not to agree with others who do. Moreover you shouldn’t throw ethics and moral together with “laws” of war because they have not much in common. The former are ideational whereas the latter are more practice oriented.

19

There is a difference between killing and murdering. When translated correctly, the commandment says ‘Thou shalt not murder’. Since God leads his people into war shortly after, it would be odd to forbid killing before.

Would anyone hesitate killing Osama or Al-Sarkawi? I can’t believe it.

20

I would like to ask Usagi a question. What would you recommend doing? The Palestinians have shown and stated numerous times that negotiation is not an option for them. How, in Isreal’s place, do you protect your citizens? Every suicide bomber is a civilian until they blow themselves up in a bus loaded with children, and by that time it’s too late.

The situation in Israel is very unfortunate, and the numerous deaths saddenning, but I tend to lean toward nico and harkyman’s opinion on this one. I get tired of people harping on Israel. Both sides have done wrong, but I think Israel has committed the lesser evil.

I like this one. What do the palestinian terrorists do? Kill or murder? What do the Israelis do?