Cycles vs. Blender Internal vs. Others

Hi, I am just starting out with blender (again after a very long break), and see that cycles is a very impressive renderer and has been included with Blender 2.62. I’ve been trying to determine which to use (since I have to re-do all the textures and lighting if I decide to switch partway through).

I know there are alot of threads on this topic, but it seems that many of them are a bit old (talking about how cycles doesn’t have as many types of shaders as BI, though I think this might have changed).

So, what I’m wondering is, as a newbie, which renderer would you recommend (for a big project I’d like to make), BI, cycles, or something entirely different?

You’d have to be a bit more specific as to which features you’re going to need.
At the moment, cycles does not come with (including but not limited to):

  • Hair
  • Subsurface Scattering
  • Volume Rendering (for Smoke, etc)
  • Motion Blur

Also, it might take too long to render animation frames with it, depending on your “budget”

Yafaray, Luxrender, Mitsuba, Blender Internal, Cycles… different tools for different needs

The best renderer is the one you know, and the one that gets the job done. Cycles isn’t currently production-ready, but then again almost no path tracers are. If you’re looking for something free for animation, I’d check out Yafaray. If you’re willing to shell out a few bucks I’d check out VRay. If you’re willing to sit down and do some book learnin’, I’d check out 3Delight or Aqsis, which are Renderman compliant.

Personally, I’d actually go ahead and just jump into Cycles. Probably a lot of people are about to scream at me for saying this, but here’s my reasoning:
I think, as a learning renderer, it isn’t bad. In a lot of ways, it’s simpler to learn than BI (the reasons for that will become clear after you’ve used Cycles and BI for a while…)
In BI, you can do some amazing things, and it renders animation pretty quickly. However, to do things very well, you really have to know what you’re doing. Also, BI can produce weird artifacts (from poorly setup lighting, among other causes…) that can be extremely tricky to debug. And that means, although almost everything in a vid looks great, you’ll have to go back and re-render that section after you’ve figured the problem. In Cycles, that almost never happens. And, since it’s very quick and easy to set up, you don’t get the hours of guesswork you sometimes run into with BI, make a little tweak to a texture, F12 render, repeat.
The problem with Cycles right now is that rendering animation does take longer than BI, even if you have a decent graphic card. So, instead, you learn some clever techniques to knock down render times some. No matter what, you’ll still get scenes that are more realistic than BI. And, as hardware gets faster, so will Cycles.
There are things BI can do that Cycles can’t, yet. However, you can do those things in BI, then composit them as special effects into a Cycles render. Just like makin’ a real movie.

At any rate, there are positives and negatives to both, and they are both free, and that’s awesome. I’d say learn both and get very good at both. But, as a beginner, that’s a scary proposition. So, I’d say start with Cycles. Because of the realtime preview window, you’ll get a very good feel for how your tweeks will affect your scene, and that’s hard to do with BI sometimes (sometimes you won’t even know how something will look in BI until you render an animation, then you suddenly see all kinds of grisly problems…)
Then, once you’re good at Cycles, you can learn to get really good at BI, which has plenty of strange pet knobs and kinks.

Either way, have fun, AND DON’T GIVE UP.

Learn both! Internal isn’t going anywhere for a while, and cycles is still far from complete. Both have their own uses, and you can even intertwine them for some really neat stuff if you know how.

Cycles is also stupid easy to learn, and a lot of fun to play with.

use both.
both are good, depending on what you need.

Wow, thanks for all the feedback. Sounds like there are good reasons to use both (and others) :slight_smile:

Hard to decide which to use for now, will probably keep playing with both. I must say that the ‘rendered’ viewport option is a really nice touch.

On a more specific note, if I wanted to make a really big scene, e.g. a big space battle, would one lend itself better than another? It seems like BI would handle the big render times better, cycles might (potentially) produce more photorealistic results, but couldn’t generate all of the special effects.

As for the 3rd party renderers, what are the specific tasks they would better at?

If you’re debating on either BI or Cycles and are using Windows I can recommend checking out Microrender, it is a new renderer for Blender that is compatible with BI shaders so you won’t have to convert materials. It has GI, meshlights and is also extremely fast and optimized for animation, so basically it is a mashup between Cycles and BI.

microRender +1

Interiors are crazy fast with MicroRender, minutes interiors renders look very well. I’ve tested it 2 days and I am impressed.

if you set more realistic settings in internal, it is slower than cycles and yafaray…
so i will no more use it

For exteriors (and I’m counting outer space in for that) cycles is actually rather fast, you only pay for the pixels you are actually tracing geometry with, and with space scenes there tends to be a lot of background coverage which is essentially free. As far as polycount is concerned, with a raytracer you need not really worry, it has less and less impact on render time the higher you go. (fex, doubling the polycount might increase render time only 5-10%)
One thing where cycles is probably faster is glossy reflections, environment lighting and occlusion. As far as effects go, you can composite them in from blender internal.

Keep in mind Mango project is a sci-fi short movie and they’re using Blender+Cycles for that. Buying the DVD will mean you have access to their files, assets etc…look here what they’re getting out of it.

Plus, I think Blender+Cycles is spreading all over a ton of power users who are experimenting with them without sharing what they’re achieving yet…it’s just a matter of time, imo. Who can’t be excited regarding a powerful and fast growing 3D app + animation and simulation tools + an internal path tracer + compositor + sculpting tools + video editor…for FREE!? :slight_smile:

If you’re debating on either BI or Cycles and are using Windows I can recommend checking out Microrender

I work primarily on the Mac, but really on several systems. Is it common to use different renderers for different scenes in a movie (ie Microrender for an indoor scene and others for outdoor) or is that likely to produce an inconsistent feel?

Keep in mind Mango project is a sci-fi short movie and they’re using Blender+Cycles for that. Buying the DVD will mean you have access to their files, assets etc

That’s a great idea to see how the pros are doing it. I’ll take a look on their site now for any tidbits :slight_smile:

If you’re willing to spend some money VRay or Thea are excellent choices. If you don’t want to pay, then I recommend Yafaray or Luxrender although if you’re thinking of animation you might want to give unbiased rendering a miss. Blender Internal is old but still fairly capable, Cycles is maturing quickly but it is still very young.

Is it common to use different renderers for different scenes in a movie (ie Microrender for an indoor scene and others for outdoor) or is that likely to produce an inconsistent feel?

I think it is a big no-no.

My advice is to understand how a renderer works at least to a basic level - direct lighting, pathtracing, bidirectional pathtracing, photon mapping, metropolis light transport, monte carlo, caustics, dispersion, anisotrop shading and stuff like that.

Once you know that, check the feature lists of the various renderers, also think to check if they offer distributed rendering, and if you take a commercial renderer how many node liceneses are included and then choose the right renderer for the project.

Well here is the “vs. Others” - glhf!
Some render engines to check out, sorted by the body height of all their devs summed up :smiley: Nah jk, random order.

3Delight http://www.3delight.com/
AccuRender http://www.accurender.com/
Advanced Rendering Toolkit http://www.artoolkit.org/
AIR http://www.sitexgraphics.com/html/air.html
Angel http://www.dctsystems.co.uk/RenderMan/angel.html
Aqsis http://www.aqsis.org/
ARC+ Render http://www.arcrender.com/
Artishock Graphics http://www.artyshock.net/
Blue Moon Rendering Tools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Moon_Rendering_Tools
Dali http://www.seanet.com/~myandper/gallery.htm
(Desktop) Radiance http://radsite.lbl.gov/radiance/HOME.html
Elvish Ray http://code.google.com/p/elvishray/
Gray http://www.keepitsimple.nl/
dRad http://users.softlab.ece.ntua.gr/~jp…icalRadiosity/
Gamma-Ray http://www.gamma-ray.de/
GRT http://www.nongnu.org/grt/
Helios Radiosity Renderer http://www.helios32.com/
Igneus http://www.igneus.co.uk/
Iguana http://www.iguana.sherweb.net/
Indigo http://www.indigorenderer.com/
Inspirer http://www.integra.jp/en/inspirer/index.html
[no name] http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcar…cgi?show=65091
[no name] http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcar…cgi?show=65267
JaTrac http://wfmh.org.pl/thorgal/jatrac/
JIG http://www.steamboat-software.com/jigwhat.html
jrMan http://www.jrman.org/
Hungry Cat http://www.hungrycat.hu/
HyperShot http://www.bunkspeed.com/hypershot/
Kilauea http://www.seanet.com/~myandper/gallery.htm
KosmoKleaner Raytracer http://www.kosmokleaner.de/raytracer.html
Kray http://www.kraytracing.com/
Kerkythea http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/
Keyshot http://www.luxion.com/
Lefty http://wifl.at.org:8080/~fusion/lefty3.php
Lightflow http://www.lightflowtech.com/
Lightsprint http://lightsprint.com/features.html
LightWorks http://www.lightworkdesign.com/products/overview.htm
LightRay http://www.tacc.utexas.edu/~cburns/l…y/lightray.php
LightRay http://www.fooberman.com/lightray/lightray.php
Lucille http://lucille.sourceforge.net/
Lux Render http://www.luxrender.net/
MachStudio Pro http://www.studiogpu.com/
Maxwell http://www.maxwellrender.com/
[no name, dead] http://web.archive.org/web//http://…ttu/rt/rt.html
Mental Boy http://www.banterle.com/francesco/gallery.html
Mental Ray http://www.mentalimages.com/products/mental-ray.html
Meridian (formerly RenderFish) http://sunfishstudio.com/software.htm
Metropolight [now possibly in Caligari Truespace] http://web.archive.org/web//http://…light.com/mlt/
MiniLight http://www.hxa.name/minilight/
Mitsuba http://www.mitsuba-renderer.org/

MLT Renderer http://web.archive.org/web/200406280…moreu/mlt.html
muRay http://muray.sourceforge.net/
Mystique http://web.archive.org/web/200212021…stique/mystiqu
[no name] http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/nickamy/
OPath http://opath.sourceforge.net/
Pane http://kevinbeason.com/scs/pane/
PARC http://www.flarg.com/parc/
Parthenon http://www.bee-www.com/parthenon/index.htm
PBRT http://www.pbrt.org/
Perceptuum http://www.hxa7241.org/perceptuum/
Phos http://web.archive.org/web/200502131…r/jpanta/Phos/
Pixie http://www.renderpixie.com/
POV-Ray and MegaPOV http://www.povray.org/
PowerSketch/Real http://www.magic-hour.co.jp/
PR Renderman https://renderman.pixar.com/
Radium http://www.radiumrenderer.com/
Ray of Light http://claustres.lautre.net/rol/
Ray-Bundle Renderer http://www.fsz.bme.hu/~szirmay/ThesisSzKL.htm
RayWonder http://web.archive.org/web/200404132…raywonder2.htm
redqueen http://www.redqueenrenderer.com/
RenderBitch http://www.renderbitch.org/
RenderCat http://web.archive.org/web/200502051…rcat/rendercat
RenderKuh http://mysticgd.com/thomas/lycium.cf…/indexOld.html
RenderPark http://www.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/cwis/re…cs/RENDERPARK/
RenderSpud http://renderspud.blogspot.com/
Render-Dot-C http://www.dotcsw.com/rdc.html
Rendition http://www.holomatix.com/products/rendition/about/
Rhea http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~arash/rhea/
Roel’s Raytracer http://www.xs4all.nl/~reije081/raytracer/index.html
Roel’s Raytracer 2 http://www.xs4all.nl/~reije081/raytracer2/index.html
SAFIR http://reynald.dumont.free.fr/Gallery.html
SHOT http://www.bunkspeed.com/
Speos http://www.optis-world.com/p_speos.htm
SSRT (Shaun’s Simple RayTracer) http://www.nirenstein.com/e107/page.php?11
sma|rt² [DEAD LINK, NO ARCHIVE] http://web21.reseller8.publicompserv…/modules/news/
SSRT http://people.cs.uct.ac.za/~snirenst/SSRT/
Sunflow http://sunflow.sourceforge.net/
THEA RENDER http://www.thearender.com/
TLRCam http://people.brandeis.edu/~mirman
Trenki Raytracer http://www.trenki.net/content/view/15/35/
Toxic http://www.toxicengine.org/
Turtle http://www.illuminatelabs.com/
Verso [slumber] http://www.tobiashill.se/?cat=8
Vidro http://www.vidro-project.com/
Virtualight [now in Caligari Truespace] http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://…rtualight.com/
WinOSi http://www.winosi.onlinehome.de/
YafaRay (succeeds YafRay) http://yafaray.org/
YASRT (Yet Another Simple Ray Tracer) http://www.yasrt.org/
VoxelRender http://voxelrender.ru/about.html
WizardEye3D http://www.wizeye3d.com/
Lightscape [dead, 3rd PARTY LINK] http://products.engineering.com/aec/…8/prodover.htm
Muse http://viarender.com.sapo.pt/products/muse/index.htm
RenderP3D [dead] http://web.archive.org/web/200406160…oes/tecnologia
Dream Quest http://sourceforge.net/projects/dreamquest/
GNU GMAN http://gman-toolkit.sourceforge.net/
Illuminate http://illuminate.sourceforge.net/
Inyo http://inyo.sourceforge.net/
Luminaire http://sourceforge.net/projects/luminaire/
PiscisRT http://piscisrt.sourceforge.net/
RadiosGL http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/Ra…/RadiosGL.html
Raja http://raja.sourceforge.net/
Raycer http://raycer.sourceforge.net/
RenderX http://sourceforge.net/projects/renderx/
R.I.S.E. http://rise.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/makepage.cgi?Home
Virtuality http://virtuality.sourceforge.net/
zRcube http://zrcube.sourceforge.net/
UDRVE http://www.bunkspeed.com/
Gelato http://www.nvidia.com/page/gz_home.html
RayBox http://www.artvps.com/page/109/raybox.htm
RenderDrive http://www.artvps.com/
rs-mr (mental ray) http://www.artvps.com/page/161/rs-mr.htm
PURE [dead] http://www.artvps.com/news.11.htm
Arion http://www.randomcontrol.com/arion
Augenblick http://www.numenus.de/index_en.html
iRay http://www.mentalimages.com/products/iray.html
Octane http://www.refractivesoftware.com/
OpenRL http://www.caustic.com/caustic-rt_caustic-gl.php
The Relativistic Raytracer http://www.anu.edu.au/Physics/Searle/
Relativistic Raytracing (POVray) http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~amb/rrt/
Light++ http://www.photon.at/~werner/light/
EVA http://algorithmicarts.com/eva-renderer/
G2 http://www.worley.com/E/Products/g2/g2.html
Wavelength-dependent Ray Tracer http://www.student.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~…/dmmccorm.html
RealStorm http://www.realstorm.com/
Piranesi http://www.informatix.co.uk/piranesi/index.shtml
Tracy http://www.momorprods.com/tracy/index.htm
OpenRT http://www.openrt.de/
Enlight http://www.afterworks.com/EnLight.asp
HDRdomeLight http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/HDRdomeLight
E-Light http://home.wanadoo.nl/r.j.o/skyraider/e-light.htm
LightMesh http://www.gfx-inside.net/lightmesh/
LumaObject http://web.archive.org/web/200208041…umaobject1.htm
ScatterVL Pro http://www.afterworks.com/ScatterVL.asp
ZBornToy http://www.taronites.com/zborntoy/zborntoy.php
Bunch of Volumes [dead] http://web.archive.org/web/200104051…com/us/bov.htm
Microrender http://www.msbsoftware.it/microrender/
NOX Renderer http://www.evermotion.org/nox
Vray http://www.vray.com/

Well… it is not quite random is it ?
Impressive list, but some are more or less dead. Think of Sunflow for instance…