Disheartened: Cloth Sim, Mesh Deform and Rigging being mean to me.

[Total_Legend]

I’ve been at this for 3 weeks now, and I can’t find a working solution to my current problem. I’ve been working on this model for months (learning Blender), and I’m finally at the point of posing it. Yet for every thing I try, I just can’t get the uniform to move along with the character – or at least not on a satisfactory way.

I tried the following:

1. Cloth Simulation: I set the character as “Collision”, and set the uniform as “Cloth”, and even left everything at default settings. When I press Play, the uniform just seems to explode everywhere and just remains hovering above the character and never settles – it will also sink INTO the character mesh as well. I would wait several minutes to find out the resulting outcome is unusable, every single time.

I even pinned parts of the uniform (top portion only) leaving the bottom skirt area to flow, but it just slowly rolls up her legs and continues to hover like so. Am I missing something here? I’ve followed every tutorial on the subject I could find.

2. Mesh Deform Modifier: As easy as this would seem, I tried this option as seen in a tutorial, but this just doesn’t work at all. No matter what I do, I can’t get the uniform to deform with the character, she just goes right through the uniform. Set to precision: 5, Dynamic, Bind.

3. Armature + Weight Painting: I’ve tried this and while it worked the best out of the two above, the issue is that I cannot for the life of me get any good results, blurring and mixing paints to make parts smoother doesn’t really make anything better. I also “Transferred Weights” from the character to the uniform with only partially successful results.

But this doesn’t solve the issue with the dynamics of the skirt, in that if (for example) she would kick high, the end of the skirt should flow down her leg, not stretch and move up with it as it does with Weight Painting.

Does anyone have any advice or suggestions on how to tackle this? I’m at the point now where every time I search on Google for help with this, it’s the same old topics or tutorials which often end up being older version of Blender, or just current ones that didn’t work for me.

I’m really afraid that, during the modeling process of the uniform, that I did something I shouldn’t have and might have to do it all over again.

Thanks for any help!

[K_Horseman]

If your cloth simulation is “exploding” you probably have unapplied scales somewhere.

The best result will come from a combination of 1 and 3. Weight paint the clothing to follow the armature, then make it a cloth simulation and pin vertices around the collar and shoulders and such, then animate your character and bake the simulation. The default settings won’t necessarily be the best. It depends on the scale of your model and the type of cloth you’re trying to make and a number of other factors. You also need to make sure you have a good topology on your clothing, though from these screenshots I’d guess that you already do.

[sourvinos]

As for the model, it should be the most evenly subdivided as possible (and sufficiently for the level of details you need). Additional mesh loops at the borders don’t hurt usually, but sometimes they can lead to issues in some places, it depends on topology.

As for your simulation, it looks like there is no gravity, or the mass of the dress is too low.

Very important is to set correctly both the ‘collisions outer face thickness’ for the collider, and the ‘cloth collision distance’ for the cloth, proportionally with the scale (i.e. for a 1.70m tall figure I use 0.0015).

Use more quality steps, even 15 if it needs, depends on other parameters, different clothes need more or less precision, see presets, cotton, denim, silk, etc to get an idea.

You have to experiment with all parameters, the right setting can make the difference.

After accomplished a good static simulation you can start to apply some weighted pinning for posing and moving, but don’t try to fix defects in the simulation through the pinning, you’re not going anywhere.

hope it helps,

paolo

[JamFX]

cloth needs a fairly dense mesh to work effectively And as K Horseman says you need to make sure your scale is reset to 1 ( ctrl a-apply scale) you could also attempt the shrinkwrap modifier and the mask modifier will hide any bits of mesh that poke through. though i strongly think that you will be best with weighting to the armature if the cloth doesnt work and using shape keys to deform the mesh. it will take time to set up but will be worth it for the result. also a wire frame image might help us to see whether there are any other issues that can be looked into.

haha, i just done it to you again K Horseman

( sorry, private joke, back to the thread…!)

[K_Horseman]

@Small Troll

haha, i just done it to you again K Horseman

Doesn’t count this time. I’m still awake. I just stepped away to get a sandwich, you little sneak. :mad:

Also, using the mask modifier to hide clipping errors? Clever. I’m going to have to look into that. Do you just use make a vertex group to match the area normally covered by the cloth?

Total Legend, would you mind sharing your .blend file? We might have more specific suggestions then.

[JamFX]

@K Horseman

Also, using the mask modifier to hide clipping errors? Clever. I’m going to have to look into that. Do you just use make a vertex group to match the area normally covered by the cloth?

hehe
yes it is a good modifier if you just have a few problem areas that tend to poke though the clothes. i think it just tells blender not to show or render those particular verices, it is also useful if you have several outfits for your character, you can keep the body mesh in tact without blender calculating all the extra geometry that isnt seen

[Total_Legend]

If your cloth simulation is “exploding” you probably have unapplied scales somewhere.

The best result will come from a combination of 1 and 3. Weight paint the clothing to follow the armature, then make it a cloth simulation and pin vertices around the collar and shoulders and such, then animate your character and bake the simulation. The default settings won’t necessarily be the best. It depends on the scale of your model and the type of cloth you’re trying to make and a number of other factors. You also need to make sure you have a good topology on your clothing, though from these screenshots I’d guess that you already do.

I checked all the objects and none of them were of the same scale (and some rotation), heh. I applied the scale & rotation to everything and the exploding clothes don’t explode as much as they used to. And after turning off X-Mirror as well, performance increased significantly for me with cloth simulation (from 0.25 FPS to 2 FPS), however it’s still messy and it still hovers just above the character, and never actually settles down.

As for your suggestion using the combination of 1 and 3, do I really have to animate the character? I haven’t gotten that far into Blender to begin animation, I was hoping to be able to do a still pose and have the (unpinned) clothing fall into place.

I want everything below the belt line to flow, though not a silky or cotton flow, but a heavy one. I would think leather would be the best, but that setting doesn’t help much. The skirt keeps rolling up her body regardless of setting. Almost as if she had fans blowing up from under.

As for the model, it should be the most evenly subdivided as possible (and sufficiently for the level of details you need). Additional mesh loops at the borders don’t hurt usually, but sometimes they can lead to issues in some places, it depends on topology.

As for your simulation, it looks like there is no gravity, or the mass of the dress is too low.

Very important is to set correctly both the ‘collisions outer face thickness’ for the collider, and the ‘cloth collision distance’ for the cloth, proportionally with the scale (i.e. for a 1.70m tall figure I use 0.0015).

Use more quality steps, even 15 if it needs, depends on other parameters, different clothes need more or less precision, see presets, cotton, denim, silk, etc to get an idea.

You have to experiment with all parameters, the right setting can make the difference.

After accomplished a good static simulation you can start to apply some weighted pinning for posing and moving, but don’t try to fix defects in the simulation through the pinning, you’re not going anywhere.

hope it helps,

paolo

Where would I set the gravity? I couldn’t find it in the Cloth Simulation or Collision panels.

The ‘collisions out face thickness’, what would you suggest I try? I tried upping and downing it, but nothing seemed to have changed. Also the ‘cloth collision distance’ seems to have 2 or 3 different sliders, I tried them all, but they really didn’t do much but slow down my computer. Was there a specific one I should try?

cloth needs a fairly dense mesh to work effectively And as K Horseman says you need to make sure your scale is reset to 1 ( ctrl a-apply scale) you could also attempt the shrinkwrap modifier and the mask modifier will hide any bits of mesh that poke through. though i strongly think that you will be best with weighting to the armature if the cloth doesnt work and using shape keys to deform the mesh. it will take time to set up but will be worth it for the result. also a wire frame image might help us to see whether there are any other issues that can be looked into.

Also, using the mask modifier to hide clipping errors? Clever. I’m going to have to look into that. Do you just use make a vertex group to match the area normally covered by the cloth?

Total Legend, would you mind sharing your .blend file? We might have more specific suggestions then.

I might upload the .blend file if I get to the point of pulling all my hair out, but so far all the suggested have improved something, which makes me feel like I’m getting closer to a solution, or rather, I’m understanding better how to achieve the results.

I have a question about the Mask Modifier, sounds interesting. It seems like it would hide or clip vertices, like doing Alt+H? I tried it on the character, but she just disappeared completely.

[K_Horseman]

@Total Legend

As for your suggestion using the combination of 1 and 3, do I really have to animate the character? I haven’t gotten that far into Blender to begin animation, I was hoping to be able to do a still pose and have the (unpinned) clothing fall into place.

Oh, I thought this was an animation. I guess I just assumed that since it was rigged, it was going to be animated. That’s kind of a silly assumption though, isn’t it?

@Total Legend

I have a question about the Mask Modifier, sounds interesting. It seems like it would hide or clip vertices, like doing Alt+H? I tried it on the character, but she just disappeared completely.

Yep, you’ll need to set up a vertex group to be hidden, which will be some subset of the vertices normally covered by cloth. Probably this will be mostly around the waist and lower torso, since parts of the legs may or may not be fully covered in any given pose. It will hide vertices from view, but the cloth should (from what I understand) still interact with them even though they appear to be hidden.

[Total_Legend]

@K Horseman

Oh, I thought this was an animation. I guess I just assumed that since it was rigged, it was going to be animated. That’s kind of a silly assumption though, isn’t it?

Eventually, I would like to do animation, but for the time being I’m just trying to get posing going with the flow of the skirt and hair to go along with it. I thought that’s what the armature would be for. Should I be using something else?

I’m a bit confused on the whole animating the cloth simulation or perhaps I am just no understanding it. But do I really need to animate the character to get the cloth sim to work with it?

I still consider myself new to Blender. The modeling was easy, it’s the modifiers, sims and materials that has my head exploding.

@K Horseman

Yep, you’ll need to set up a vertex group to be hidden, which will be some subset of the vertices normally covered by cloth. Probably this will be mostly around the waist and lower torso, since parts of the legs may or may not be fully covered in any given pose. It will hide vertices from view, but the cloth should (from what I understand) still interact with them even though they appear to be hidden.

Thanks. I’ll give this a try.

[sourvinos]

Total Legend,
cloth simulations are not as easy as push a button, you have to practice and learn before you can get something useful, and simulations are usually very time consuming.
On my quad i7 I have sometime no more than 0.003 FPS, because of the high precision needed to get a decent behavior in posing.

About Gravity, you have Scene Gravity in the Scene tab of the Properties panel, and you have also a specific setting for gravity in the ‘Cloth Field Weights’ of the Cloth tab.

As for the ‘collisions out face thickness’ i suggest to make it something near to reality, so I told you that for a character that is 1.70m tall, as an average human being is, I would set this thickness to 0.0015, that is 1.5mm (default is 0.015), otherwise the clothes always will float away from the skin of the character, and the dress would be forced to rise (because at the beginning it is sized to the figure, not to the figure+‘collision thickness all around’ ), and this seems exactly your problem.

Was there a specific one I should try?

yes, the Cloth collisions -> Distance.

EDIT: and don’t forget to set the same parameter on the collider object.

I was never able to get Repel and Repel Distance to work, so I personally ignore them, they don’t help to me.
Friction instead is important for the result, but don’t forget that it works in conjunction with the same parameter of the Collider object.

paolo

[K_Horseman]

@Total Legend

I’m a bit confused on the whole animating the cloth simulation or perhaps I am just no understanding it. But do I really need to animate the character to get the cloth sim to work with it?

No, but if you’re going to animate or even just pose the character, you should use the armature to help position the cloth properly. Makes it a bit easier for the simulation to get everything in the right place.

[sourvinos]

I’m not fully of your opinion K Horseman, of course you can do it that way, but you could even sculpt it over the posed figure, and it could be even faster; but imho, if you are going to go the simulation way, you should take the maximum from it before starting to cheat (not the correct word…)

paolo

[Total_Legend]

So far, this is what I’ve accomplished with everyone’s help and a bit of poking around with random buttons and sliders. This time the skirt no longer slides up or explodes as it did before. It turns out I had a Subdivision Modifier placed before the Cloth Modifier which caused it to explode. When I moved it after the Cloth, it provided the results of the image above. While still not there yet, it is a huge improvement. Now I need to figure out how to keep it from puffing up like it does in the image, I can’t get it to settle down, even messing with settings recommended.

For anyone also with the same issue leading up to this point, I had to do the following to get this far:

1. Ask for help.
2. Use recommendations.
3. Remove (or apply) mirror modifiers.
4. Turn off X-Mirror.
5. Set the scale and rotation to all objects involved (Character, Uniform, Armature which were all different) with Control+A, Apply Scale & Rotation.

I’m getting closer, but I still need to figure out the puffy skirt issue.

And unfortunately, applying the uniform to the Armature, and running the Cloth sim still didn’t help, there are parts that remain where they are (untouched) while other parts bounce around.