Get more detail out of a normal map

Hey!
I’m very new to this sort of process, that ahead.
I have a very high resolution sculpt of a snake. It is, even though I have a potent system, hard to handle, so I baked a normal map onto a low res mesh. Works like a charm, but so much detail got lost, though I used a 8192x8192 map. I figure (cause I’m REALLY smart :P) that maybe I can recover some of that detail by using a higher res map.
Can Blender handle a 16384 map? I have 16GB of Ram, so that should do, but I have urgent stuff to do, so I try to waste as little time as possible :slight_smile: That’s why I don’t just try.

Thanks!

How many polys has your high res model?
A 8192 map has 67 million pixels, assuming your uv map takes only 50% of the image surface (make it as large as possible to make most use of your resolution) that gives approx 35 million polygon resolution. If your high poly model has less than this, going to a higher res map can’t give you any more detail than you currently have.

Hey Richard!

It has a bit more that 35 million polies. The poly-problem is about re-modelling. I wouldn’t care about waiting for it to snap to the curve modifier, or longer render times. But I had to remodel the jaw so it can bite its own tail, and that is not possible with the high poly model. I can select the vertices, but moving them… after 10 minutes of waiting I went back to the model with the normal map. The only thing I’m missing are tiny little teeth I sculpted in with the snake hook tool.
The snake just stretches from corner to corner, so maybe, if at all, it uses 30%, rather less.
Would increasing that help with the teeth or would just be a marginal improvement?

why do you need so much details?

i mean map has to do with how the camera is close when render and for normal map there is a limit on the 3D effect you get
for large bumps!
the image will map to each face but if you show a close shot where you face is larger then you map in pixel then you loose quality in the render!

so if you want really high level of details and speed then go with sculpt tool then you can add anything you want!

It seems like a 16,384 px map would be enormous - 50mb? Random guess. Why not just use the geometry? If you need your normal map for a low poly object, the game won’t like that image size any way, so baking to 2048px, and then scaling it in PS would work.

I think what we are asking is the final use of the normal map - on a real time or rendered object.

@ Ricky: I come from print design. For a good print, you need high resolution and high detail, and that is what I intend to use it for. So, at least 350dpi are what I use to work with - that is 5x screen resolution. My problem is: I made some mistakes. The snake’s head has enough detail, the body too little. My experience is not yet suffiecient to think of using 2 meshes with different multires, and I don’t have the time to redo it a THIRD time :slight_smile: So I applied all modifiers to be able to finish sculpting and now I’m stuck with a huge amount of verts that are practically incontrollable. That’s why I hadto do a normal map.

@3Dmedieval: definitely enormous. No problem, for n00bs like me a strong system is always making up for mistakes :slight_smile: Why I don’t use the geometry: I tried to remodel the jaw. I could select the vertices, but no way in hell MOVE them. Sculpt mode works fine, but I can’t rotate parts of the body that way.
It is supposed to be a high res render only, I would never try to apply that much detail for a game, that much I luckily know :slight_smile:

But I guess for the intended use it’s “good enough” right now. I think it’s acceptable.


what size of render is this
or that you need to do like 5000 X 5000 pixels?

mind you here the pic is not high res so difficult to see details!

unless you need to print very large poster like 2 meters by 2 meters
which i’m not certain if possible with blender yet!
the render would be too large i guess

The render is 3500x3500. probably the material itself is the cause for a loss in detail, too, because shadows are probably reduced by the internal reflectivity.

Looking good. Reminds me of Conan the Barbarian. A tip on modeling: Yes, it’s hard to move thousands of verts around. When I have to model in high poly, I use subsurf modifiers without applying them. That way, you can always rework the low or medium poly model, and never have to try to move 1000 verts.

remember that with normal or bump map shadows are not done with these maps!

it’s only a fake 3D effect and cannot make shadows from these!

salutations

@3dMedieval: thanks. I know you like that stuff, I’ve seen some on your site a week ago or so. The Brothership of the Snake is but not a movie fiction :slight_smile: About the high poly count: that was what I stated as my mistakes in my las answer to Ricky. I’m aware of that. I just, for some reason, WANTED to use the normal map, thinking this was more advanced :stuck_out_tongue:

@Ricky: Uh-Oh… looks like, if time allows, I WILL have to redo it a 3rd time :frowning:

would be easier if unlimited clay was added in sculpt mode

that would reduce quit a lot the verts count !

but it will come later this spring hopefully!

In the moment I would be happy about the render preview window :slight_smile: But right - sculpting will, and should, grow big. Though I really just sculpted in details, the rest was all box modelled.

there is a good intro to this normal map at cgcookie
check out the tut on alien there are a few of these showing rigging and also using bump/normal map
which is very well made

might give you some ideas and tips on how to use bump normal map in 2.5

Yes, I have that and I also did it live with Jonathan on Mavenseed. But still I missed exactly THAT :stuck_out_tongue:
Thanks, Ricky :slight_smile:

but this is a limitations of normal map it is valid only at a specific angle / camera

and the 3D effect is limited in amplitude samething with bump map

these are use for small details not large one
otherwise go with 2 displacement modifier and texture
but depends on the details you need

there is paint projection or camera projection that might help
check these out

Have you considered painting the extra detail onto the normal map? Or sculpt the extra detail onto a plane and paste part of that normal map onto the one you already have?

If the detail you need is visible on the normal map you already made, what about duplicating it in Photoshop and experiment with layer blending modes to increase the amount of usable detail?

I don’t know if this applies in this instance, but it is worth reading anyway:-

@Ricky: for now I’m fine. It will only be about 10cm large and I won’t make this mistake again :slight_smile:
@organic: THAT is but a good idea! I’ll give it a try :slight_smile: the specific parts are on a special part of the UV anyway! Thanks!

I don’t know if this applies in this instance, but it is worth reading anyway:-
http://www.cgtextures.com/content.ph…name=normalmap

I love and use that technique a lot. Highly recommended. It takes some experimenting - I keep a blender file open and just keep reloading my normal map texture.