i disagree totally, i think i put it perfectly
i basically cut down zarfs long paragraphs
yeah sure the guy is a jackass,
but a witty one!
(im not taking sides btw)
i disagree totally, i think i put it perfectly
i basically cut down zarfs long paragraphs
yeah sure the guy is a jackass,
but a witty one!(im not taking sides btw)
Either that or the people that he’s talking to are stupid enough to belive it.
I just told my dad about what happend, and after thinking if he would come back and say “Don’t impersonate and officer or something like that,” I said I don’t even think he thinks I’m that big of an idiot. Then he comes back and says what I thought he wouldn’t say. That happens alot. I think somebodys gonna do something, then they don’t do it. And when I think they arn’t, they do. AHH!
How stupid are these people? I’m not going to feel sorry for someone that ignorant. What teaches these people to just accept things without even questioning or investigating? Religion? Cults? Politics? To take it that far just blows my mind. He was spanking a bare-assed teenager. Who believes the police to be that infallible?
Louise Ogborn was always willing to take on extra shifts at McDonald’s in Mount Washington, Ky. Ogborn’s mother had health problems and had recently lost her job, so the 18-year-old did whatever she could to help make ends meet.
I don’t mean to take away from the seriousness of this post (although the title is misleading IMO), but the girl did need money. Now, you can almost guarantee that she’s gotten a handsome settlement from McDonald’s and will probably win a suit against the manager, if she charges her in a civil court of law. I mean, talk about neglecting the duty of care.
–lir
Not to mention rough childhood, the absence of a parent of the opposite sex and bullying in school. And of course the occasional girl-fights on the playground in grade two.
But yea, she was concerned about her job which got her into a mess. All people involved are, quite sadly, completely retarded (in the colloquial meaning of the word) and moronic, and should be punished accordingly. The girl will remember this for the rest of her life; hopefully she won’t fall for that kind of shit again.
Oh my god, you are reading an article as if it says the whole story and thus you are accusing the “VICTIM” of being in the wrong. WTF is wrong with you people.
A) the series of events lasted for Hours from what i could tell.
B) if the caller had any skill the early parts of the situation would have been very realistic.
C) the victim is NEVER responsible for this, its like saying a woman wearing a short skirt desirves to be raped… Nooooo the criminal needs to take some responsibility for their own actions. the victim may be increasing the chance of being noticed by a rapist, or she may be inappropriatly dressed, but she is not guilty of rape for being inappropriatly dressed. (like the woman in india who wasdivorced after being raped and put in prison WTF is wrong with you people)
D) its a newspaper its not the real event, they don’t write it all.
Alltaken
nobody is blaming it on the girl, it’s just sort of amazing that someone would be taken down the garden path so easily. that aside, the perpetrator should be punished severely.
We can all take a lesson from this tragedy…
McDonalds girls are easy Giggety Giggety.
The girl was just young and vunerable, the manager should have protected her, but instead sided with a voice on a phone, leads me to believe if the girl had caused trouble the manager would find a reason to fire her anyway, the manager would have had training in sexual conduct, it’s standard, she also left a small naked girl alone with a large man, and placed that man in a authority position over the girl, bad,very bad… now what guy in his right mind would engage in a sexual act in the knowledge that his fiancee coulld walk in at any moment? unless that was fine by her or even arranged with the caller, I find the whole situation suspect, I hope the police are investigating any possible contact between the caller and the couple, internet chat groups/bulletin boards etc.
ps who knew about the camera? only the higher management that arrived at the end?
Idd, I thought about this before.
She called her fiancee to keep an eye on her, or he happened to be around?
But it is rather obvious, I hope the investigators thought likewise.
P
Well, you should all know that young adults and people with low confidance /high fears can be manipulated quite easily. You could walk up to a girl in the street, and ask her to undress, and it’s quite possible (maybe not in the middle of the street…) that they will.
Dont believe thats true? its happened to two girls in the UK (both together), and the person who asked them they also -knew-, they did it out of fear, and there was no case since he asked them, not forced them.
Obviously, Mcdonalds is a rather low paying job, and shes there workin her ass off doing over time because her mother just recently lost her job… Manager calls you in (which is a frightening thing for anyone when its out of the blue) and say the police is on the phone / accuses you of theft…
She could lose her job? She has a job shes suposed to be doing ATM… shes there with her assitant manager probabily shitting herself over the issue esp since the asst manager beleives she did it etc… and with the situation with her mother, i wouldn’t be suprised if she bent over backwards for them so she could keep her job and get back to work.
You also have to remember this man has probabily manipulated people all his life, not to mention been doing that sort of thing -over the phone- to many people before this incident.
Once you’ve dug youself into a hole, its gets harder and harder to get out the deeper it gets.
I agree 100% with blendermax and Alltaken. I have a lot of friends in law enforcement and criminology. I don’t feel too simpathetic towards police officers who cannot empathize or at least understand the psychology involved in this kind of offense.
I’ve also worked in a lot of low-level jobs and the manager’s actions don’t really surprise me… sadly. But what happened is criminal. It makes my blood boil. I think all the participants (who, acording to the articles, all claim themselves ‘victims’) are due some serious consequences, including jail time, for holding and molesting this young girl.
I study martial arts and sciences for the sole purpose that I may be able to defend others from criminals (i.e. those people, wittingly or not, engaging in criminal behavior). You or I may be able to have the wits and power to take on the manager or her boyfriend, but children (and many, many adults) cannot. That’s why police officers are trained. So that they can.
I must respectfully disagree with your assesment. There is nothing realistic about this. This is not how the police can (legally) operate in the US. Even if they could ascertain ‘reasonable cause’, a very important part of being able to legally detain someone, the idea of detaining someone over the phone via ‘proxy’ (especially because of a snatched purse) is legally dubious at best and ludicrous at worst.
Now it may be argued that the police do not always operate within the confines of the law and this would be true. However the idea of being detained by someone claiming to be a police officer ,illegally, and over the phone, with only the verbal threat of reprecussions is not going to make any reasonably intelligent person allow themselves to be tormented as this girl was.
No the woman is not guilty of rape for being innapropriatly dressed, but she may be very guilty of being foolish, unwise, and if she knew better, just plain stupid.
To make myself clear and dispel any possible misunderstanings, I firmly believe that no one has any right to lay a hand on you or sexually assualt you. Despite this you have a responsibility to yourself to make decisions that will keep yourself safe. When you breach this responsibility it is not unreasonable to say that your actions were foolish and perhaps even highly idiotic (to put it bluntly). This does not mean that if you are hurt by someone else as a result of your own stupidity that they are not guilty of wrong doing. In fact their guilt is the same regardless of what you did.
However this does not change the fact that you had a part to play in your own victimization nor should your part be forgiven or forgotten. First of all if you dont recognize that knowingly putting yourself in that situation, or by knowingly failing to remove yourself from it that you had made a decision that led to your own victimization you run the risk of making the same mistake again. This is obviously not good for your long term health and/or survival. Furthermore you foolish/stupid behavior cannot then be used as anecdotal material in training other people to not behave in the same way if it is considered ‘acceptable’.
I assume by this you mean that the newspaper is only one interpretation of reality and therefore is prone to factual errors, bias and outright lies. This is certainly true. However I feel that does not mean that we cannot or should not make an assesment of the material that we have at hand. It is very possible that some information will come to light that will change the whole nature of the story and will make many peoples comments about the girls foolishness invalid. However, as with all things, we can only base our opinions on the information that we have.
Cheers,
Xarf
I belive that since the rapest(always male, see Law & Order:SVU and millions of other shows) and victum thing is SO popular, it’s possible that much of the story is false.
But, I want to ask as to why you think rape is so popular noadays? It’s just like any other crime. I’ve heard of murdurers getting less servere punishments than rapest. I don’t know why they think rape is just as bad as killing someone. Perhaps they play to many games?
I attribute the popularity of rape stories to the sex boom that’s happening, vastly on the internet. It feeds people’s sick, perverted fantasies, and so increases views (of whatever media; tv, internet, newspapers, etc.) and so revenue from subscriptions and advertisements. It’s all about the money. I doubt that the story is false, it has appaeared on a number of respectable news sites, which is difficult to attribute to anything but to the event happening. (Unless you believe in conspiracy theory, but that’s a whole different matter…)
Cheers,
Tom
Duoas agreed with me!
To quote Harkyman: Apathy Begets Tyranny.
This is absolutely correct. If you don’t know the laws that are in place to protect you (Miranda-style rights), they may as well not exist. That’s ignorance, and unless you’re mentally incapable of knowing these rights you’ve no excuse if something happens to you. It’s your duty as a citizen to know your rights and to act them when the time is proper.
I realize what Zarf and I are saying is pretty harsh, but it’s the truth. Do I still feel sorry for this girl? Yes; On two fronts. First she was victimized, but this is double edged: she let herself be victimized. Again, this is harsh, but it’s true. Had she known her rights she wouldn’t have been victimized. Maybe I’m a bitter and cynical person, but I’ve learned not to trust “just anyone”. I rarely take anyone at their word, especially not strangers on the phone, either individuals or companies.
Am I blaming the victim? To a certain degree, after all if she’d known better, and had navigated things a little more logically rather than melting down emotionally this wouldn’t have happened.
Does this make what the guy did any less wrong? No, not in the least. The guys a sorry SOB who should be delivered a copious amount of jail time for what he did, he took advantage of someone who unfortunately didn’t know how to protect herself. It’s inexcusable and still very wrong.
And about girls who wear short skirts, why do they get “ho’d” up in the first place? To look “sexy”? To get guys to look at her? Is she that insecure? Sounds to me like she’s got emotional problems too. In the least you’ve got guys raping her in their minds, at worst it actually happens. But what exactly does this extreme example have to do with one’s miranda rights?
So in short, if you are incapable of defending yourself or finding out how to defend yourself, I do not blame you. However if you can do both but refuse to learn you are partially to blame. The criminal will still attempt to victimize you regardless of whether you can defend yourself or not (so long as he is ignorant of the fact that you can or cannot defend yourself). If you’re ignorant of the fact that you have rights, then your parents, teachers and mentors screwed up royally, in which case getting hurt now, though it really is tough may save your life in the future. Naivte is no excuse.
[sarcasm]omg every human being must be a fully self-actualized, completely autonomous being, who exactly fits a particular conservative black and white worldview, otherwise ye be judged.[/sarcasm]
But seriously, have you people (those blaming the victim) never had contact with a human being who is vulnerable?
And what is with the obsession with spelling out how and why the victim is to be blamed and is responsible for this situation herself?
Am I partially responsible for my own murder if someone shoots me in the head because I didn’t stop the bullet with my skull?
This case may not be quite as extreme as my example, but somewhere between two people just chatting on the street and me being responsible for stopping the bullet with my skull is a huge grey area of human interaction and power dynamics and manipulation etc.
Reducing all human interaction to: ‘if someone abuses you you are responsible for the abuse because you let them abuse you (in whole or in part)’ is oversimplifying the world too much, imho. The world just is not that simple.
I think blaming the victim, in this case, is callous, insensitive, and just wholly ridiculous.
b01c
I dont quite understand your example here since in my opinion it dosnt exactly reflect what people are saying. I think it would be more reasonable to say that some of us believe that you would be partially to blame for your own death if you knowingly walk in the firing path of a crazed killer instead of running the opposite direction.
Once again I am not sure what you seem to think people are saying is what is actually being said. I dont believe that anyone stated categorically that if someone is abused its their fault for putting themselves into that situation or for neglecting to remove themselves from it. I think its a more accurate representation of the views being expressed here to say that in some cases, not all, the victim is, through ignorance or stupidity partially causing their own misery.
Yes the world is exceedingly complex. I dont think anyone claimed otherwise.
I would have to respectfully disagree. Additionaly I think that the posts in this thread forum would be more constructive if we refrained from missrepresenting the views of those we dissagree with.
Cheers,
Xarf
Although I agreed (in principle) with pretty much the rest of your post this jumped out at me…
Not to go to OTT I do wonder why you think a female that dresses in a way that either she or men find to be sexy is an indicator of emotional problems. The way I see it, its the same as birds that have bright and wonderfull markings that serve no evolutionary purpose but to attract a mate. Furthermore I think men do the same thing in principle (no matter how much they claim otherwise). Sex is a vital part of our being and visual attraction is a vital component of our sexuality.
Cheers,
Xarf