I love the program, but the community

Ya know, I’m retired, on my dominate hand I have significant nerve damage and carpel tunnel And the other one’s not so hot ether… So things like holding a pen are problematic for me. But Occasionally I make a post here or there, And I end up in a discussion with idiots who can’t grasp how that might hinder the workflow.

Now time and time again people rage about blenders non-acceptance in the professional world. And I’ve done some talking with some professionals. And I don’t think its the program they have an issue with. This community does not inspire the type of faith in people that they would invest their livelihood in any member of it, with out some reservations.

I love the program, But as a whole I detest the community.

Hmm. Don’t really want to be involved into the flaming here.

But for working with one hand in Blender, it is quite possible. First step is to change your setup to have a hotkey free navigation. I have set up my navigation to use MMB for rotating, RMB for translation and the scrollwheel for zooming. I work that way since years. Most of the rest is all reachable by menus too.

What you have shown us here is a screenshot of some text, minus the context that lead up to it, and offered a negative evaluation of the community, which seemingly, you are basing on an ambiguous conversation with an individual in a usenet chat room. That aside, I have heard very different opinions than yours about the quality of the community, from users of other more mainstream software packages, and their support systems. I understand you are frustrated, but a less hostile approach would be more helpful, imo. The people who help in the support forums here, do so free of charge, and do a fine job. Have you tried politely asking for help in the basics and interface section of this forum?

Look to the game engine threads, for the most part, we all just help each other.

No elitism or flaming going on in there.

Maybe you’ve never worked in a professional environment anywhere, not sure. But professionals, I chose that word carefully, who don’t have time to bicker and fuss about every little snarky comment made by users are going to choose a program based on support and usability, not who was or who wasn’t a jerk on so and so thread.
The same can be said about the Linux community. Linux is used in a lot of VFX studios for various reasons, none of them being how nice and friendly the user community is.

There’s a guy that I work with that has been in the business for quite some time and when I asked him about blender, he laughed. He gave me a list of reasons as to why he feels the way he feels about blender, none of which had anything to do with forums or chat rooms.
Not sure which ‘professionals’ you’ve talked to but generally speaking they have better things to do with their time than hang out in forums especially while under a tight deadline.

This is the second time I’ve seen you express your feelings about the blender community here.

Personally I’ve found most to be very helpful by simply being nice and courteous. That can go a long way.

I have my own reservations about blender and the user base but that has nothing to do with how helpful they are or based on any kind of interaction with users.

Perhaps the issue really lies with you? Frequently complaining about something can often give others the impression that you’re not a very happy person, which may or may not be true of course but it does give that impression.

Actually not long ago I had someone contact me on another website regarding something Blender related, after helping this person out I suggested he check out Blender Artists to which he replied:

“I just been there to once more see that it more disturbing and less useful as always.”

Pesonally I enjoy discussing things here, but I can certainly see where people have problems. For one, posting work is always about “critiquing,” which often ends up being more criticism than critique, and improvement. The casual artist isn’t really welcomed here in my opinion. Someone who’s just enjoying themselves may not be looking to improve their work based on industry standard practices and instead just wanna present their work for the mutual enjoyment of those with a similar interest in CG and perhaps spark a discussion about their chosen topic, cg, blender, or whatever.

Often I find that Blender Artists is all work and no play. I’m not personally complining about that, just sayin I can see where that’s not necessarily the environment everyone finds attractive. It’s odd really because usually I think of the artist as being one of the least constrained by standards and regulation, the least mechanical, but discussion on the other forums here is probably the most mechanical and detached of any forum I’ve been to.

I would say it’s almost as if people on this forum don’t know how to just shoot the shit with someone, conversation outside of off-topic, if you can call it conversation, is very mechanical, disconnected, and insincere.

…yar … they get mad at you for having a discussion…

Indeed, sometimes the criticism one is likely to receive on this forum is slightly less than constructive. And of course, there are some who cannot keep themselves from needlessly insulting another’s opinion- one of the main reasons this forum lost its allure for me about two year ago. It seemed that I wasn’t getting enough value from being here to justify the amount of time I spent on it.
My findings on this forum are:
It is very small- and thus, people here are often very familiar. Familiar people are also often less afraid of insulting one another than they are of insulting strangers.
People tend to spend more time arguing about a statement’s validity, then arguing about the argument’s validity, or creating posts with the intent of jimmy-rustling. I’m certain that @BluePrintRandom is quite familiar with the overflow of “why isn’t the BGE a game engine?” posts.
When people post legitimate questions or post legitimate critiques, people are often concise, constructive, and informative.
See, the BA forums, like anywhere else ever, are plagued by conflict and babbling. But ignore that, and you’ve got yourself a great community where you can show off your work, receive critique/ help, and gain internet presence.

also check this out

Have you hugged your bge dev lately?

The community is under development as well. Most don’t know how to approach open models. Most don’t understand the difference between open source and proprietary. In open source, the “customer” isn’t necessarily always right.

A lot of the issues touted about open models seem to be rooted in contrast with proprietary models. People try to approach Sourceforge or kickstarter as an ap store or Amazon. This is inappropriate. To approach a support forum as though it were a support hotline would also be inappropriate.

This is still pretty new for all of us. We have to work together to make it work. This community is a beautiful thing… in progress.

I’m not trying to get into that whole conversation, (as I don’t want to progress down a conversation that has already been had way more times than it was needed) just stating how silly it was that so many people decided to keep posting the same question, over and over…

@Blonder couldn’t have said it better.

The ratio of mean people to nice people is no different here then in the rest of the world. I do not know why many people post here, no where else to go maybe.
I get almost all my support questions answered quickly here.
I have friend from all over the world because of this site.
It is true the biggest critics often have little or no work to show, and post often in the off topic, the very most off topic subjects.

“The social dynamics of Internet forums” have been the topic of many a PhD thesis … and I’m sure that this will never end anytime soon. Nevertheless, I remain stubbornly convinced that most people come to these online resources for the same purpose: "to ‘get’ valuable information/answers quickly, and then, “to maybe ‘return’ the favor.”

They will do so, alas, “as humans.” From time to time they’ll be totally-wrong. (I dimly recall that happeing to me, once …) :wink: They might be writing on one-too-many end-of-day beers. :rolleyes: But, by and large, the information and insight that you can get from a forum (nevermind any one particular participant, “obnoxious” or no …), you can get nowhere else.

Thus, I would certainly choose to stop well short of the OP’s comment … “I detest the community.” But, at the same time, I would not treat such a comment entirely “at face value.” It’s … a human comment. Maybe “a little more human” than other posts, but all such things simply come with the territory. And, “the territory” is an irreplaceable resource to all of us.

Most of the time that type of “obnoxious” behavior can be attributed to a lack of self esteem. They fear their own value to the world is lacking and to conceal this that they believe to be true they lash out at others in an attempt to make others appear less valuable thereby making themselves appear more valuable by contrast. For the most part this only works in their own eyes, but if someone becomes the victim of this type of behavior often it can eat away at their own self esteem ultimately leading to an array of results including depression, suicide, violence and in severe cases serial killings and mass murders.

In the past this type of thing has been weaponized by large groups of people. For instance April Fools day, as it has come to be known, was actually the Pagan new year. The fools day came into play in an effort by the Catholic church to systematically ridicule and belittle the Pagans.

/me nods …

… and CG is a very intense preoccupation, very frustrating also when your render comes up “looking like garbage” and you’re confronted with The Gallery. It’s very easy, really, to lose your temper, either with the program or with a community of fans.

There’s another really-interesting thing in all forums. “Right now, I’m talking.” Off the cuff, informally. Uh huh … but you are “reading.” The outcome is completely, completely different.

The written word has much more impact. You can’t see my body-language, my expression, nor hear my tone-of-voice. You can’t see my emotional state, whether I’m tipsy, sick, or sober. You only see: written words.

They are also: public words.

When you see the word, “you,” you don’t take it in the impersonal English sense, as in the expression “you don’t take it” in this very sentence. No, consciously or unconsciously, “you” means: y-o-u. As in, “you personally.” It’s very easy to take personal exception, and a “flame war” begins. That, too, is the power of the written word. It might or might not be what the XXXspeakerXXX author itended, but it’s what is received.

You can get things from forum participation (and lurking) that you can’t get anywhere else … and, faster than you can get them anywhere else. But you have to know, going in, how the dynamics work. Both when you XXXhearXXX read things, and especially when you XXXspeakXXX write. Thick skin and a pitcher full of tolerance and forgiveness.

Hey - I’m a newbee and this site has treated me well. None of the RTFM stuff and, after I rephrase my questions so they make sence, I get some good responses. I’ve previously been involved as a moderator in a site that turned into a political/social mess and I left it. Hope this does not go the same way. It’s up to the members.

Re critiques - Here is a problem — The non-professionals, like me, are interested in general critiques where as the pros want the nits pointed out. If critiques are getting a bit out of hand for the member, I’d suggest he/she/trans place a thank you reply or change the subject to solved.

All in all let’s keep up the good work.

I love the community and the program, the only thing I detest, is elitism and douchbaggery.

I think that the Pie menus can help with your hand situation.

Well, this was the original thought behind separating Work in Progress (general critique) and Focused Critique, where advanced Blender Users could get their nits picked. But it comes and goes. At present, most of the critiquing seems to be in Work in Progress.

Whether the critiques are ‘getting out of hand’ or not, it is always good form to thank someone who’s taken their time to offer some thoughts on your work. No one ever said you have to agree with a critique, or put it into practice on your current project. But it’s bad form to not acknowledge someone’s comment, and even worse form to argue with it, beyond “I tried that, it didn’t look good to me.”

The best way to sort out the kind of critique you want is to be up front when you ask for critique. “Hey, what do you think?” is way too general, and invites anything from, “Hey, looks neat” to a dissertation on the flaws of your composition and color choices. If you are working on something in particular, mention it and ask for help in that area. That way people will know if you are looking for comments on the modeling detail, or the texturing, or the lighting, or whatever…

There used to be a bit more of RTFM, but that was back in the days when the manual was a bit more reliable. Now, so much of the manual is either out of date or missing new features, that RTFM really doesn’t make sense.

I had a discussion the other day with a recent acquaintance of mine regarding creativity. I said that while I find logic and creativity to be equally useful the two do differ. For instance with creativity there can be situations in which there is no right and no wrong. If you were trying to draw a portrait of someone specific and the finished product looked nothing like the person you were trying to paint then you might say you incorrectly executed a few techniques, however; if you were to begin painting with no particular outcome in mind then what you end up with can be neither right or wrong. Critiques might go so far as to define whether or not a particular individual found the work pleasing, displeasing or indifferent, but cannot classify the work or the techniques used as either right or wrong, proper or improper.*

Logic is far more cut and dry, at least most of the time. x+y either does or does not equal a+b.

Edit: *Because the end product is exactly what the painter set out to create… Something… Anything