In the beginning...

General Forums Off-topic Chat
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Alright, before I say anything I want you to know that I’m NOT trying to start some religious flamewar. I just want to voice some ideas that could be possible. Do NOT reply to this message if you’re going to defend or attack your or other people’s ideas.

There’s a lot of ideas about the “creation” of the universe, of all the planets and Earth and life and all that stuff. Some say God did it, some say it was the big bang. But how do we know that there was a beginning? So far time has been stretching out infinitly in the future, how do we know that time never began. Maybe there was no big bang or god. Maybe we are just another planet, in just another solar system, in just another galaxy, that happened to have life.

If before the “begining” there was nothing, how could a huge explosion or God make the universe? And who created God? Was God just always around? If so, why can’t we bring that down a level and say that the universe was always around. Planets and Stars are made all the time. We could be nothing special, just inteligent life.

No offense meant to anybody in this post, it’s just an idea.

Pooba

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It could be that something happens in the future could set back time to the beginning, in an endless loop. Like Cyan Sun, for instance.

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Hehe, glad to see im not the only one who thinks about this stuff alot!!! :wink: For the last few years, pretty much daily i find myself wondering about us, what is a human (outside of the human perspective), why are we alive, what is life, what is this home of ours we call the Universe which appears to be infinate.

It’s all so mind boggling, and no one really knows even tho some have very strong beleifs, which is alright, each to their own 'eh? :wink:

I wonder what the connection is between the physical universe and the feeling of a higher power above us, a “God” as we call it. I’ve often thought it possible that the universe is just the “sub-atomic” vantage point for us inside “Gods” body. And that we and a we can perceive is just a very tiny part of a larger living entity. And our actions on Earth effect this entity. Like if we keep our planet clean and be good to eachother, stop wars and start seeing the reasons to love this place, everything will be fine and good for us. But, if we abuse this planet, throw nukes around and untimatly polute our home, that eventually this “Gods” body will treat us as a cancer and take mesures to heal itself against us, by treating us as a disease and wiping us out. We could be like the bacteria that our own bodies have, both good and bad, in our own little bodily universes. Some help us and aid us with things like digestion and healing, others make us sick and we have to fight them off with our natural defences against illnesses.

But, i will say that i do not belive this 100%, i dont belive ANYTHING 100% since its impossible for me to know. But i do like entertaining possibilities, and wondering from a humble “i dont know what is” point of view. :wink:

Anywayz… :wink:

Matt

Blend on, and blend well!!!

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Pretty close to what I also believe Bapsis… I think that everything is connected… We (the humans) the animals the trees the planets, the stars… everything is linked together… and we all are a part of what we might call… universe, or nature, or even… God itself…

Universe is one huge living, breathing, thinking entity… It’s God’s “body”… And we are part of it…

If we are “good” (start respecting nature and protect our environment, stop wars, etc…) we willl evolve and prosper… If we are not, we will be treated like “viruses”… The “body’s” immune system will fight us and reject us…

Spyros.

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ok guys I like the idea that the universe is part of “god”

but we could go down another level…

imgine if the universe was an atoms of god’s body (just saying this like that…)…then our atoms in our body could be small universes and maybe another species is living somewhere in our body thinking about the same thing :o

we all know that the atom is made of electron spinning around some proton and neutron…like a solar system…or maybe the universe, we don’t exactly know how work a universe, maybe the galaxy could be the electrons and the middle of it could be the proton…like an atom is almost all made of “nothing”…like in space…

maybe…

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A while back, I started a thread about how our universe goes on for infinity. Somebody said their theory that every atom on/in this earth is a universe in its own (since size measurement is infinite), and our universe could be something like an atom in a insignificant speck of dirt 13 km underground in a lifeless planet in a higher universe. That universe is also an atom in an even higher universe…

I personally don’t believe this, but there’s no possible way to prove that it’s not true…

It almost hurts to think about something like that. :-?

About creation of the universe and all that, we obviously weren’t there, and no matter how hard we try, we’ll never be able to prove how the universe came to be. Scientists say that the earth was formed 4.6 billion years ago…how did they come to that conclusion?

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Hell, maybe god has some huge Supercomputer and he wrote a program: us. Maybe we’re just a computer program that’s running on the most godlike computer around.

That might explain how, if God is real, he created the world in 6 days, he spent them writing a really nice script that generated AI, grew stuff, and all that stuff and then just let it run.

But I also wonder why “God” cares. Why does he care if we’re good or not? Why would he say, “You were bad in life, you’re going to hell for eternal torture!” That seems like a kind of mean thing to do.

Pooba

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Hi

It’s a good that this kind of discussions are started from time to time.

I think mankind has two characteristics that doesn’t allow to come to a final answer.

  1. We wouldn’t be able to discuss such questions via internet if we wouldn’t ask everytime we found an answer for a question: Why just this answer, what’s behind it. Or: if this is the reason, what’s the reason for the reason. etc. Short, we always ask why.

  2. We are just not intelligent enough to answer all questions or give a reason for everything. Why should we ?

From the standpoint of evolution there is no reason why intelligence should have rosen from somthing around zero for worms and apes to 100 % for humans within a few hundered thousend years and no step inbetween.

From a religious standpoint we shouldn’t have 100% of intelligence and wisdom otherwise we would be god. (6 billion gods, uahhh)

If before the “begining” there was nothing, how could a huge explosion or God make the universe? And who created God? Was God just always around? If so, why can’t we bring that down a level and say that the universe was always around. Planets and Stars are made all the time.

If we can bring this down to one level than we probably have the answers to all questions (someone wrote it’s 42 :wink: ).
If we just bring this down to one level than we believe.
And believing is the big gift of religion; you can rest and say I’m tired to search for answers there is someone who cares for my needs.

We could be nothing special, just inteligent life.

Would we be intelligent if we wouldn’t ask why and how, observe, draw conclusions, and again ask why and how ?

My model of bringing physics and god “togethter” are two parallel lines.
The gap between is the difference between mankind and god or from the other point of view the lack of intelligence. (Please don’t draw the conclusion that I mean: god = lack of intelligence; I don’t)
For god (if he,she,it is) those two lines belong to a plane, cyclinder, or a hyper something and he can move over as he wants to. For us they are just parallel lines.
Some of us may walk only on the physics line others only on the “religious” line, most of us more or less on both but the gap remains.

Making progress on the physics line doesn’t bring us closer to the religious line or forces god back.
So, if we go forward on the physics line there may be one day when some scientist is told “this is the end of infinity, you found all answers to physical questions”.
Remains the question.
Who is Q ?

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Two things here: You’re first question creates an endless loop. If you admit someone created God, who created the guy who created God? And who created that guy? And so forth. You just get a big infinity.
Assuming God did create the universe, he could have created time then too. It be as if the clock simply wasn’t running yet, so there was no eternity for God to have just always been around in.

Not having been there, I don’t know. It’s simply faith.

Goo

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First, a very coldly scientific notion: everything in the physical world points to a (I love this term)
POINT OF GENESIS. (I told you it sounded cool!) The laws of thermodynamics say that first the amount of energy in the universe is constant and second that the amount of usable energy is declining. This means that at one point, these two numbers intersect, so there is a point of genesis.

Exactly, from an evolutionary standpoint, intelligence is not a Darwinian trait. Even if one member of a population has increased intelligence, it would not necessarily be “selected.” Apparently, intelligence seems to increase with outbreeding, but doesn’t stay. Thus, we have a huge population on earth now, and a proportional few are smart :wink: . However, the fact that most humans are comparatively intelligent compared to animals and the mysterious origin of that intelligence brings into question the origin of humankind.

Second, about my non-scientific ideas: I believe that God has always been and exists outside of the four dimensions we exist in: therefore, He is bound neither spatially or temporally.

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Pooba wrote:

That might explain how, if God is real, he created the world in 6 days, he spent them writing a really nice script that generated AI, grew stuff, and all that stuff and then just let it run.

See this… but don’t tell anyone.

https://blenderartists.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9368&highlight=religious+prude

%<

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My “intellectual” ideas:

  1. We live in a small universe compared to God. We are essentially just a speck of dust on some police officer’s uniform, so he’s going to arrest us.
  2. We are essentially characters of one huge movie. (24: The Movie… yeah right.) Some high being is watching what we do.
  3. We are puppets. The puppeteer is entertaining himself.
  4. We are characters in some online, freelance PC game. “Reality: Online.”
  5. We were made by a higher being with too much free time/brains. He’s either controlling us, or he’s letting us do whatever he wants.

In short: We were created, and we were created by a being who seems to either be really bored, really smart, really weird, really immortal, or any mixture of those 4 ideas.

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Hi ray_theway

My statement wasn’t meant exactly this way.

I wouldn’t second this without a few comments:
There are mainly two points I have to critic in Mr. Little’s argumentation.
First he confuses cultural exchange with gene pool exchange.
And second he confuses the rise and decline of cultures with increase and loss of intelligence as mankind.
(You first have to be intelligent to be creative or to learn math. If you learned math than you know more but you are not more intelligent; that would be kind of Lamarkian trait)

I don’t want to bore the others with off topic stuff, but I do. :wink:

Let me give short naive story to explain that:
Let’s assume I’m sitting alone in front of my computer and model some houses with MAX. Some day I will know all the necessary keys and techniques and maybe get bored of doing houses, but I’ve learned nothing else and everybody around me also models houses with MAX. Some day I meat someone who only made character animation with MAX nothing else and became bored. Now we talk about our work exchange our knowledge and techniques. The high culture of animated characters in houses is born. But someday also this gets boring. Then, another modeler comes by. He is able to do grass and trees etc. with blender. Now they share again their knowledge but decide to do animated characters in houses with gardens using blender. After a while MAX was nearly forgotten. Only the bill over a few thousand bugs made the three thinking of it, occasionally.

Now all this has nothing to do with gene pool exchange or loss or increase of intelligence.
It is knowledge exchange and learning new and forgetting old techniques (and apps :slight_smile: )
In other words I see no need in Mr. Little’s argumentation to argue pro or against Darwin or to name him at all.
If one asks if human intelligence is a Darwinian trait or not one would have to search in the pre human era and try to make a forecast to the post human era but it doesn’t make much sense in my understanding of Darwin too search for it in the human era.

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Hmm, very interesting insights. I kind of think that the actual occurence falls somewhere between what Little described and what you described. This makes perfect sense, since (if you pardon my nearsighted American example) many intelligence “sparkles” are seen in America, as a result of both the genetic and cultural exchanges that occured here.

And I enjoyed your cute little story. If survival of the fittest is true, [biased opinion]MAX is about to meet Darwin[/biased opinion]. :stuck_out_tongue:

Oh, and also my response to CubeFan: What if we weren’t just the members of a form of entertainment, but perhaps some kind of players in a cosmic chess game (not like a freelance game where we all are independent, but pawns in a two-sided match)?

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Ok, so who created God ?

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Funny thing, todays fortune, what a coincidence:

In the Beginning

It was a nice day.
– (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)

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Oh, and also my response to CubeFan: What if we weren’t just the members of a form of entertainment, but perhaps some kind of players in a cosmic chess game (not like a freelance game where we all are independent, but pawns in a two-sided match)?

Then we’re all being controlled, by some huge guy with way too much time on his hands. (BTW: I’d think something like “The Game Of Life” by Milton-Bradley or whoever would be more suitable than chess.)

Why, God’s mom & dad in the “holy bounds of wedlock,” of course.

That’s not a biased opinion, it’s a biased fact.

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Do NOT reply to this message if you’re going to defend or attack your or other people’s ideas.

But didn’t you attack Creationists when you questioned the existance of God? And you would consider it unnacceptable if a person gave evidence for the existance of God?

I’m not joining in here. I’m just pointing out the possibility of this being one of those topics where one side has their say and the other side is ordered to be silent, as affirming Creation would be a defense of God.

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But didn’t you attack Creationists when you questioned the existance of God? And you would consider it unnacceptable if a person gave evidence for the existance of God?

Questioning stuff doesn’t attack it. If I say, “Who are you?” it isn’t the same as me walking up and crushing your skull with a big stick. I’m merely being curious.

Maybe this world is a simulation designed to entertain our REAL selves, but it also makes us forget our other lives when we log on. Or we’re just AI in one of these simulations (like in the movie The 13th Floor).

Two things here: You’re first question creates an endless loop. If you admit someone created God, who created the guy who created God? And who created that guy? And so forth. You just get a big infinity.
Assuming God did create the universe, he could have created time then too. It be as if the clock simply wasn’t running yet, so there was no eternity for God to have just always been around in.

1st thing, yes I know.

2nd thing, if there WAS no eternity for God to have just been around then how would he have any knowledge at all to create time and the world?

A while back, I started a thread about how our universe goes on for infinity.

I read an article that said that if an infinite universe was real that would mean that ANYTHING could be possible. Since it never ends there could be another you out there that does something in your life a little bit differently, like maybe they put down the article instead of reading it.

Pooba