Is Blender becoming too complex for no reason ?

General Forums Blender and CG Discussions
21

I think I’d be so much happier if somebody would write a “Blender for Dummies” book or something, but I suspect it’d be out of date by the time it was finished. The closest I’ve seen was a wikibook that started off really well, but petered out half way through the first chapter.

Documentation and GUI are the deciding factors when it comes to useability, and while I love open source software, it does have a nasty habit of struggling on espicially documentation. The software companies pay people to write docs for their products, but open source relies od volenteers, and writing docs is a lot less fun than writing code…

22

It’s worth a try.

Documentation and GUI are the deciding factors when it comes to useability, and while I love open source software, it does have a nasty habit of struggling on espicially documentation. The software companies pay people to write docs for their products, but open source relies od volenteers, and writing docs is a lot less fun than writing code…

No : I can’t code but I love learning and writing about it. It is a challenge for me to make something clear for everyone (minus a few) just as much as it may be a challenge for a coder to find the right algorithm. Plus that’s what I’m best doing.

23

blender cant be complex enough!
it’s too easy to understand right now…

we need more complexity!
:stuck_out_tongue:

.andy

24

You really like sure bets don’t you ?

:smiley:

Jean

25

But that’s a bit unfair to people like Matt who do want their interface design to serve as many users as possible, not just his own design feel. Or theeth making widgets and other transform locking possible.

Their motivation might be internal, but that does not mean they don’t want to implement gui/ui that’s loved by their public.

Sure, a total GUI/UI makeover is very much wanted but very very difficult to realize… The obstacles are not difficult to invision. There are 2 possible ways: 1. revolution, 2. evolution.

  1. revolution. Make a blender 3.0 from scratch…
    This would need a very well organized production team. And unpaid open source projects don’t tent to be able to do things like this. That said Firefox is a good example that it can be done. Then again, rendering a html document is far easier then creating an html editor… Not even talking about a 3d animation suite.

  2. evolution. Change blender is little steps.
    That has dna/cancer pitfalls. Surgeons need to make sure growing lumbs are good lumbs and not bad lumbs. And some old postatics need to be removed. And some new postatics need to be made to fit better.

What does that mean for the documentation?

In an ideal world the documentation is written before the feature is implemented. Giving people with knolledge of blender the oportunity to comment on the concept, and help on how to implement the Gui (time is in frames not seconds in decimals, start and end frames are in the render window, please do not create new buttons with the same information, etc. )

This is not what we see alot. It’s or: “He you, write this feature” or “He you, I’ve made this feature”.

Lot’s of documentation is on micro level. Even made by the developers. More people are needed that show overview vision, and they need to get empowerment by the dictator. Ton’s been complaining for years now at the bconf that he needs more organisational power (meaning people who want to organize things for him), but I don’t think he’s ready yet to get those people in, because it’s to difficult for him to give them real empowerment. (Last time the empowered almost killed his creation, so no blaim there).

The best way to go, I think, is two ways:
Write documentation on macro level. Write about animation, modeling, styling, and o yes, btw, blender has this and this ui and gui concept, so you can do in this and this way. The “click here” and “press that” approach is not going to generate great artists… Great hobbiests, but not great artists. So maybe tell dummies to stick with their version might help to.

And,… now comes the hard part: New features need to be turned OFF by default in the official release. I don’t care about CVS, that can be full of nonsens and crashing and stuff, but people who want a new version with BUG FIXES don’t want there selection (for example) to be changed because some guy thinks his 120 hours of coding is worth more effort then the 12000 hours of users trying to figure out why they can’t select their verteces anymore. Don’t do revolution tactics on an evolution process!

just my 4 cents.
keep up the good work IamInnocent

26

But that’s a bit unfair to people like Matt who do want their interface design to serve as many users as possible, not just his own design feel. Or theeth making widgets and other transform locking possible.

Their motivation might be internal, but that does not mean they don’t want to implement gui/ui that’s loved by their public.[/quote]
Yes, it may be a bit unfair to generalize that, but there is a grain of truth there too. As you said yourself, joeri, in this thread:

At least there is the understanding of the fact that people are different - artists are different from programmers, etc. And at least with this understanding, attempts are being made to communicate across these lines of distinction. Real attempts, such as this forum & the one on blender.org, and most importantly projects like orange, from which we’ve seen significant strides in the right direction. Its my hope that such efforts, and others like them, continue, so that blender will eventually evolve into a genuinely intuitive artists tool. Its getting closer daily, as the artwork produced attests! Keep at it!

27

Exactly!

28

What does complex means anyway?
a) A maze of features?
b) To much tweaking around and fiddling, whereas it could be automated?
c) Overcrowded GUI?

I think rigging has gotten more features, but paradoxaly it has gotten less complex.
Another instance: RVK has gotten less complex, it is called Blend shapes.
Particles and mesh editing is in danger of getting too complex. Maybe the extra buttons and or functionalities should be grouped better.
More shaders doesn’t it make it more complex. Just select your shader from the dropdown box.

Ambigiouty makes something complex too. For instance, what are the design rules of the stack? Why is Spin and Spin duplicate not a part of the stack and so on. If the workflow is ambigous, it may look like as if it has gotten complex.

The fact is that Blender will get more and more and more features (so programmers: stop eating oriental chicken and British cows. Resist, we need you) and it is not impossible to keep it mean and lean like it always was.

29

Using Blender is a good way to start exploring the context of 3d design. I have read experiences from teachers and students of Blender who love Blenders basic approach to 3d software design. Blender lets you grow at your own pace. Your pace of price value, your pace of skill, your pace of digging beyond the software interface and learning to work with computer code. Blender offers it’s users something for every level of how they choose to approach the concept of 3d software usage. Blender is not a “just” a tool for film animation or architecture. We can use Blender for just about anything.

For a while Blender was at a middle ground of being adequate 3d software. Blender let a 3d artist create 3d art and designs at the most common levels of most other 3d apps. You didn’t have advanced ik animation, dynamics, particle FX, or hair features. You had a very good alternative to other 3d apps for producing great 3d digital art.

Now we Blender users with the aid of some very amazing coders are crossing into a new era of 3d software. The way that we used to think about approaching Blender may change. But the core “Potatomode” driven concept of using a 3d software won’t change. Yeah were getting more features and power in Blender now. But when the action of development for each release settles down, we still have a fresh new build of good old Blender. I hope that this never changes.

Blend on!

30

I still think blender magazine subscription will solve the problem and help pay for blender community.

31

I’m going to deviate way away from the topic to reply to Al_Capone’s post (which is already off-topic), but I feel obligated. Please split or delete if you feel it’s necessary.

If the money’s going to the community, who’s gonna pay for the magazine to be printed? or is it going to be digital-only? If it’s the latter, how many people actually pay for a digital-only subscription to a magazine? Are all of your contributors going to be volunteers? What about th e editor, or the layout person/people?

32

The community has to say, hey we are a popular bunch, we have the skills that pays the bills, we can get stuff done, come on and check us out. As more schools teach Blender and more media companies get involved in the Blender process money will come. The PR has to be managed to this end and the right people have to be contacted such as organizations. Maybe a dynamic demo of Blenders usage in action on a Livecd, etc. People have to click the buttons for themselves to get into the Blender mindset.

Oh and this goes way beyond having a cool gallery of Blenders graphical output. Blender has always needed to be experienced by the interested parties in order to be appreciated. Blender is more of a 3d software tool than a 3d software appliance. After Blender settles into organizations as an valuable asset I’m sure it will stick at that point and beyond.

After that, it’s on people. Small steps can lead to mountainous leaps sooner than we expect.

Blender can morph into something greater on many levels as we move further along.

I wonder if Ton could have ever imagined Blenders current status of being 10 years ago…

33

If any of you are willing to participate in the blender ‘marketing effort’ and are willing to help make it a reality contact me and I can add you the the blender marketing team. As Ton stated Blender Marketing is not the typical marketing department ie - we don’t get to boss the developers around :slight_smile:

LetterRip

34

If the money’s going to the community, who’s gonna pay for the magazine to be printed? or is it going to be digital-only? If it’s the latter, how many people actually pay for a digital-only subscription to a magazine? Are all of your contributors going to be volunteers? What about th e editor, or the layout person/people?

Well, not elYsiun, but blender website, a small portion will go to it from the subscription that are bought, say like a doller or two. It’s pretty much the same as how blender manual pays contributes money. The best thing about subscriptions is that it can go from first print to the latest, so whoever is reading them can learn about blender, tips, whatever while back issue will continue to be created.

35

It’s getting more complicated, but it can still be simple. When I just started Blender, it took me 2 days to learn how to get around fairly well. It wasn’t hard at all.

36

i agree with henrymop, it’s getting more complicated but it still can be fairly easy, i myself think the armature system has became easier, i started using blender when 2.35 whas released and since some things have became easier but some don’t. I think just let it being developed might be harder for newbies but for the more experienced users it’s just something new to learn and a new option to explore, and the posibility to make you’re drawings even better (and they are so cool already :P)

niels

37

Neither did I thought it was hard to do the basics in Blender. I didn’t knew anything about 3D for a half year but now I am pretty skilled. Someone said that it’s just better if Blender gets more complex, I agree with that.

38

I’d love to do a long email for this but time prevents (you lucky people :wink: )

I agree the documentation effort is way more complex … BUT that blender is not getting more complex.

The fact that you have 10 different ways to size, move, transform, etc. is not complexity it is flexibility. New enhancements have made things easier while pushing the possibilities of what you can do with blender a very, very long way. Infact now more then ever blender users can pick up a Max or Maya tutorial and follow it using blender.

The issue comes when trying to educate or self teach. The flexibility gets in the way. It’s not a reference that people need it’s a course that introduces the concepts and expands as things progress. There is lot of reference and tutorial material but not so much sequential work - especially when it comes to the animation process.

39

I agree, just because there is more than one way to do something doesn’t make it harder. There are millions of ways that you could get to your neighbors house next door, but its still pretty easy to walk over there. Personally, I like blender exactly the way it is. In fact, if it’s UI and controls became more like the other apps (maya, milkshape ect) then I would be very dissapointed.

40

Ok, I just had a look at the new build and now I think that there’s way to much stuff to absorb during a year time. I think what would really help the most, is a way to hide features that people might not want to use, according to them of course.

Can the poor over work developers take a break on putting new things in and perhaps concentrate on ways to make it more manageable. It would be nice to catch up on other things like tutorials, GUI’s, scripts, manuals, etc, etc.