Is Blender Looked Down on Because It's Free?

I agree with you that commercial support is holding Blender back. I hope that the Blender Institute is expanding the Blender Cloud services step by step to suite the commercial needs better, which also includes support.

My view on funding the development is rather different. By far the most important part to ensure continuous high quality development is to keep the developers on board. Because of that, it it necessary to hire them fulltime and to have a stable funding. A fundraiser is the worst thing you can do. You hire developers and once they feel comfortable, you have to let them go because there is no more money left. And even worse, they usually have to move on and it is not that unlikely that someone else has to maintain the code.
Working with the community would also be a nightmare. Even though the users agree that they e.g. want a UI redesign, their views vary tremendously and it is simply not possible to listen to them. You may e.g. have a look at the wireframe thread in this forum. Almost everyone agreed how important wireframes are, but if you have a closer look, you are going to find at least 5 significantly different ideas about it which are not compatible with each other and some even ignore basic principles of Blender. You would need one person who is working fulltime just to handle the communication side. At the end, the users would still not have a ton to say.
In my opinion, it is not a missed opportunity. It is a really good decisions!

An old argument for those living in caves. For us who dont, we know thousands of free software apps that some never saw the light of the day.

It’s a brutal world for free software for a simple reason. People dont like to work for free. Thus free software always starves for more develpers, usually the no 1 problem they face.

Blender popularity may spoiled you, but make no mistake about it, Blender is an extremely rare exception and it has to thank the ingenuity of Ton for that huge success.

  • Blender is popular as an indie tool, but it’s not enough to dominate the industry. Blender is making waves among small to medium sized studios, but it’s the big VFX houses that determine which apps. become the dominating force.

The indy game market and the AAA game market. AAA market has huge budget but they rarely make games, indy has ridiculously low budget and they make games one after the other. At this time indy seems to slowly overtake AAA, at least from the steam numbers I have seen. AAA are mostly big to huge commercial successes, while indy are mostly failures but indy games are so numerous that they add up to around a 50% of the global pc game market. By indy I also include small studios because the lines are a blur.

Most indy game devs are new to the industry , started with blender because they had no money and continue to use it because they are very good with it and cant be bothered to go through the torture of learning a new 3d app.

AAA games are made from companies that have long depended on specific software and stick to it because they know people who will work for them will most likely already worked with it, in some other studio.

  • It’s not the number of features, it’s the quality of the features. Blender has some features which are not much more than a hack or a black box that has trouble interacting with anything else. Others have been hastily designed and are full of bugs (hence all of the overhauls going on or proposed with 2.8).

Its impossible for open source code to be a black box, its the exact opposite. About Blender features , go read reviews in magazines and online.

Steam in particularly is very funny because not only Blender reviews are insanely positively and there are a ton of them. The equivelant of the free/cheap software released by Autodesk, I think its 3ds lite or may lite something, dont remember , has been full with negative criticism. Many of them worth reading cause they are hilarious :smiley:

  • Blender one of the top apps. for pros? I would love to believe that, but we need a citation from a source outside of the Blender community.

again read reviews. Golden age of internet, so easy to find them.

  • Commercial app. stagnation is more the result of the Autodesk monopoly than being unable to keep up. Look at Side Effects to see an example of a company pouring its resources into development (Houdini’s development rate is actually a bit faster than Blender’s).

I dont follow Houdini, Modo looks its doing fine but again Blender belongs to the big boys, Maya and 3ds, its far more popular to Houdining .

  • The part about close to zero funding is becoming false, the BF (together with the Institute) is generating well over 100,000 Euros annually right now (that is great funding for something free and open source).

Because I have been working with big businesses as lawyer for over a decade now, anything bellow millions is peanuts.

  • Indigo, Maxwell, Fryrender, and other path tracers put physically-based rendering out there for all to see before Cycles was even born.

But none of them was cycles. Cycles has been dancing around other game engines for sometime now.And it was huge news for the 3d industry when it was released.

  • The game engine part is correct, but the BGE failed to keep up with the rest of Blender and is now a pile of junk (the only thing that can save it is having UPBGE as the drop-in replacement and there’s no solid roadmap agreed by that team and the BF).

BGE was never intended to be a pro game engine. But is far from junk, our BGE forum is one of the most popular here with thousands of games WIP and finished. BGE is excellent starting point because of its ease of use. While its node based logic interface was there for more than a decade before Unreal got blueprints.

  • Partial UI redesigns at least are common among commercial apps. (though a total UI change in one go is indeed uncommon).

Annnnnd nope

UI is a must avoid at all cost for redesigns. Coder have an inate phobia for GUIs , which is why most GUI suck big time and they want to have as little as possible to do with it. Their second fear is documentation.

No idea who told you that, but that is definetly not the case. Coders are extremely against any form of rewrite unless its absolutely necessary.

The vast majority of software out there remains unchanged. I had over a decade to use 3ds and i took a look at it and it looked like nothing it changed. Then I read the 3d world’s review and it said that nothing changed.

  • Autodesk and friends don’t need Open Movie Projects, they have studios using their software and they are able to influence the direction they are developed (because they are the biggest customers).

I never said they do need

  • User/Dev discussion is becoming far more common among the communities of commercial software houses (though results are a little mixed). Don’t forget that most Blender devs. do not like BA so much because of constant rancor in things like feedback threads.

No developer likes users. For the simple fact that users vastly underestimate the amount of effort it goes in. Companies has support departments for customers and you can be certain you wont find any devs in them. Maybe for small companies. Big companies if you get a repsonse its probably a smart bot.

  • The BF won’t take in large and very complex addons, the idea is to make sure an addon won’t create too much of an addition to Blender’s filesize.

There very few large and complex addons, the vast majority are simple. They do however have a strict procedure for accepting new addons. If you dont follow it your addon will get rejected and rightly so. Too much crappy code out there for them to endure any more of it. Good luck finding other companies that will mainain your addon.

I do love Blender, but we should choose honesty over exaggeration if we want to see its propagation continue to grow.

At last we agree in something, I have been watching you for over a decade here, its about time you stop exaggerating in your criticism and realise that Blender is only get more popular not less.

At this point I only need to point people to steam reviews about Blender.

Talking about big company, my brother works for a big architectural company. I introduced him to Blender because he was not super happy with C4D and now after a month he uses only Blender for the illustrations and has been converting people at the company his is working as well.

Funny things is that I did not even recommend Blender , I warned him the UI is annoying at first and it wont be a smooth ride. As soon as he got over the basics, again he learned alone from online tutorials, I just help him with the hard stuff , he now practically lives inside Blender.

Nowdays you dont even need to open your moth to convince someone to use Blender, you let him use it and the end. It still has it quirk but Blender has reached awesomeness like no other 3d app out there.

Well I’d agree mostly. But all these things rely on strong direction from BF. And certainly finding the signal in the noise of user feedback isn’t always easy. But other open source projects have certainly been successful there as well.

Do you have some examples where other open source projects were successful regarding handling user feedback? I am interested to see how it is handled elsewhere. Currently, Pablo seems to be taking the role of a more active communicator and I believe this may be changing how the Blender Foundation and the Blender Institute are perceived in a positive way. Even if nothing else changes, I believe that there are going to be many users who feel as if they are taken more seriously.

You seem to be looking for a way where individual users or some groups of users have a stronger influence on the development. I haven’t seen that in any software project so far to be honest. There is no guide in any application which tells you to perform certain steps to get the feature implemented you are looking for. How could this be done from your point of view in a realistic way?

First off, it would be helpful if you read up on opinions of Blender on sites other than Steam (there are some reviewers whose remarks on almost anything will be positive, because for some, the standard of what makes something good is that it doesn’t crash). Then you have the binary ranking system, it either indicates you like and you recommend it or you don’t, there’s no between. On other CG-oriented sites, the opinions of Blender will be mixed (some with more positive opinions, other with more negative ones).

One thing I tried to make a rebuttal for is the claim that Blender is the most innovative app. in CG, but the fact is that while Blender was quick to implement some important, there were several others that it was extremely late to (some which will only be in as of Blender 2.8). The Blender 2.8 features for instance include overridable proxies and an ultra fast viewport (the first one being a feature that existed in commercial pipelines since the 90’s). Ever wanted to do the rocket ship scene in Toy Story from 23 years ago, that is a difficult to impossible job to do without Python, and it’s been considered a crippling limitation that has kept Blender out of studios (but at long last it will be no more).

When I say extremely late, I mean Blender is more or less the last application to get a feature outside the lowest of the low end. A lot of innovative features that Blender could’ve gotten has also withered on the vine, and Blender sometimes had more projects fail or get delayed indefinitely than ones that do get done and into the next releases (for instance, there were three attempts to implement a full GI engine in Blender dating all the way back to 2.37, it would be many years later that it finally happened). Fortunately though, Blender 2.8 is seeing work from the largest paid development team in the application’s history, that and the effort to improve patch review and communication lends the promise that larger numbers of projects succeed and that the ball won’t be dropped as much.

Hate to burst your bubble, but there’s still a huge number of todo items in terms of development and the BF is aware, they just need time and resources (and surprise patches from volunteers).

Big studios require frameworks and extendability.

Max and Maya are as full of “quirkflows” and ui inconsistencies as blender and are so buggy it’s a crime.
Anonymous Autodesk developer… yeah, that long standing bug will never be fixed because the guy that wrote it left and it’s too gnarly for anyone to tackle!

It happens for commercial software just like in open source!

Blender has momentum and is growing stronger. Depsgraph and workspaces are critical features that will open up usability and ux possibilities.

Pipelines are a funny thing. Just look at the foundry. It makes it’s business selling software that’s main USP is a flexible framework… With the downside that out of the box functionality are of little use to an individual or small team.

I guess my point is that who really cares what a big studio wants or does? Their requirements are totally different to small studios, freelancers and lone wolves. Blender is a great choice for That!

And it’s great for video game development

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Can we have three examples for Max ? You can’t just throw out words like that.

I don’t go to wasted my time with a user that think his opinion is the only opinion when is clear that you don’t have real arguments.

It’s a thread about a problem that blender have now. Not about fanboys that try to win a discussion while he touch himself thinking that blender is used in AAA titles

I didn’t throw out examples because it’s not the topic at hand. Nothing is perfect was the point.

Max and Maya Crashe constantly… with maya interaction mode in max you cant shift clone an object… push as a modifier doesn’t respect soft selection… lots of basic modelling tools that are mostly one off operations are only modifiers… constant collapsing the stack. I could go on.
Ok, it’s not show stopping but there’s no such thing as perfect. Maya is even worse in many ways. the modelling toolkit works differently than accessing the same commands from other areas of the UI! I could write for days but it’s pointless.

I can list many blender faults too. It’s a pointless excercise because they all have these idiosyncrasies, strengths and weaknesses and it all depends what you want to do.

A big FX shot for a movie is more likely to rendered through something like katana (or homegrown in house equivalent) with DCC tools just making and exporting components… kind of similar to games using unreal and having elements made externally.

Blender is looked down upon for lots of reason, but I doubt one of them is because it’s free.

We can resume the 3 pages :

  • support
  • python 3
  • licence
  • performances
  • features maybe with UDIM, OpenVDB

With the 2.8 we will have UDIM and performances, for the rest, it’s up to de BF.
I know for sure that many studios in france start using Blender and Blender is used everywhere for modeling, for smoke etc.

Blender is used more and more, the 2.8 project will give it a big boost.

It’s not clear the UDIM support for 2.8

The big big big studios (Pixar/Disney, Dreamworks, Sony etc.) don’t just use Maya or Max – they develop and use their own tools. They may use Maya for some tasks, but those studios could drop it altogether tomorrow and they would still crank out $B movies. The point is, don’t think these powerhouses prefer Maya over Blender – they could care less about such petty squabbles.

As for the smaller studios – they use whatever tools get the job done, whether it’s Maya, Max, Modo, notepad, MS Paint – whatever. The tool is just a tool, it’s the artist that makes a difference. I’m sure if some modeler at Blur cranked out a stellar 3d human in Blender they wouldn’t care what it was created in.

From the remaining three points, the only one where something can actually be done is the support. This could be tackled at one point by the Blender Institute (not the Blender Foundation).
The license can’t be changed. It is not legally possible to do it and the only way to tackle it would be to have an agreement from all developers who have contributed and this is not going to happen even if a lot of effort was put into it.
Python 3 can’t be changed either, because a lot of code would need to be changed, including all addons. This would require a huge investment and even worse, after 2020, Python 2.7 is not going to be maintained anymore. So everything would need to be reverted after that point. Alternatively, everything could be developed in parallel for Python 3 and Python 2.7. All options to switch or additionally support Python 2.7 are not practically feasible.

At this point I don’t see any issues. Actually I never have. Blender is growing. And it will grow to the extent that it adds better and better features. Adding things like the Principled Shader for instance and Noise Reduction are two main factors to take business away from the likes of Renderman.

I think that the largest push to improve Blender’s standing is about to come to fruition. 2.8 is going to be leaps and bounds in the right direction.

Capability = use. Really all there is too it. Tools that help you work faster and smarter. This is what makes people use software primarily.

And Blender is on the move. :slight_smile:

  • Flexibility @Nodal everything. As there is no Plugin API to solve all problems studios face, it is vital to have the ability to implement custom solutions (nodal noodles) that a particular production scenario requires. In other words if ICE were in Blender, sky would be the limit.

Otherwise I genuinely think give it a few more years and such questions will not be actual. Big studios of course will always use their ancient, rigid inhouse solutions, but as far as smaller studios and individuals are concerned Blender will be best choice, at very least for asset creation.

The Nodal everything or an API will help to avoid the license problem.

Like other times we have talked, the main problem in blender is that Blender foundation aim to big productions, shorts,… when the main users are freelances an content creation.

Pixar have used Maya a lot of years, actually they are moving to complete studio tools or other tools like Katana.

I whole heartedly agree! Blender is a great go too tool Super capable in so many important areas and getting better all the time!