It's okai to copy!

Hi, New here, Hi,
I have been using Blender for a Week now. I love it. In the first 2 days i actually learned all the modeling features. However there are some things that are bothering me a bit about blenders editing features.
I have used Maya and 3dsMAx before, and even knowing they are much more matured in their developement level, I wonder If the Blender developers look at these two programs and how they handle editing on polygons and such?
For example:
When i try to edit just one face the rest around it gets screwed up in several Triangles.
While in Maya, the face i selected would only be affected.
If i delete an edge, the whole face gets deleted.
While in Maya the polygons with the edge between them would just delete the edge without loosing the faces(they basically become one, I have tried the Make Fgon…but i wasn’t sure if its the same thing).
Knife tool, i can’t cut one face without affecting the others.
I really really like blender, and would like to continue using it.
But i’m really wondering if the developers are looking at the other appz or are just implementing features that they think work for 3D software?
Anyway good job, as far as Blender goes I’m impressed =D!

~
Sidar

I’ve been an avid Maya user myself and the first thing I’ve noticed when I started to model was that the knife tool only made my model worse with all those triangles. I had to rethink how I model after that. In Maya it was easy. I just split the polygon where ever and how ever.

I started with to think how to make everything quads and how the edge-loops look and so on. Something that I never used to do in Maya.

So in my opinion blender made me a better modeler.

The stuff you’re talking about relates to ngons. Now, there are a few good reasons for not having ngons, which relate to subdivision modeling, but ngons really shine when you are doing mechanical or architectural work. Hopefully Blender will have ngon support by version 2.5, but we’ll wait and see.

As for maturity, I’d consider Blender to be a mature product. It has plenty of good features like the modelling workflow, while Maya’s modelling tools needs work. Blender is on par with the big commercial packages, and all it really needs is some big studios to adopt Blender into their pipeline to really get people interested in it. Just my two cents worth.

Sidar,

It is not about copying or not copying. All that you’re asking about comes down to what are generally called “n-gons”, or put in another way, polygons of more than 4 vertices. Blender only supports triangles and quads, so when you divide a single face, it has to divide neighboring faces to compensate the extra vertices that suddenly appear.
Inclusion of n-gons into Blender is, I think, something of a polemic issue. I’m not a modelling expert but, apparently, the over use of n-gons is not a healthy practice, and it is good form to try to always use quads, specially when you’re aiming at meshes that will be deformed by Armatures and the like.
F(for Fake)-gons basially emulate n-gons to some extent by grouping faces together.

There, hope that clarifies it a little.

PS: don’t draw comparissions between Blender and the “big names” cassually, it rubs some people the wrong way :slight_smile:

BigDad,
Same here, it’s a bit frustrating to be honest. I’m having trouble rearranging my polygon edges and what not and in the end im just moving vertexes and edges untill it really gets tiresome.
G_dragon.
What i meant with maturity, Maya is up to version 8.5 and 3DsMAx is up to version 9 =P.
Blender is just at 2.x so when Blender reaches 9 it should be bad ass XD
Cosimo,
Yeah thnx, I got confused -_- it’s been a while since i learned all that tech stuff.
But still for other features Blender developers, should just rip it right out of others =P.
It’s freeware! Only makes it better =).
Also Blender is doing a fairly amazing job compared to the big names. So it deserves that credit though =).

Thnx guys.
Ngon…>_>

… just replied and it didn’t post >_>…
Well gonna keep it short this time:
Thnx ill remember that.

Yes, there is a project called B-mesh that has been in development for a while that will replace Blender’s current mesh-modeling system. It has support for ngons and after seeing some of the preliminary videos, I can say that it looks pretty powerful. But you’ll have to wait, as it it’ll be a while. Many people are saying it’ll be here in 2.50, but with all the other work that’ll be going into that release, I’d it’d be more apt to say 2.60.

I can’t think of any good reason for not having n-gons, even with subdivision surfaces they are quite useful if you use them correctly.

N-gons are not planned for 2.5. Anything is possible, but I think its pretty safe to assume they wont be there.

Cheers,
Briggs

Well the reason N-gons would be really helpfull is because rearranging your edges/fixing quads goes way faster with n-gons, than with the editing tool Blender provides now.
I did some research about it (2.5/2.6) and some people really don’t want it… they pretend they can’t go back to their way of modeling.
I say bring it, it really helps for a faster way of modeling.

I want n-gons in blender. It’s really great for fast modeling but for animation/sculpting its worthless.

Well the thing is i’m not looking for polygons with more than 4 vertexes.
N-gons is just great when it comes down to fixing quads and tris.
The faces are much more flexible that you can cut them in every way to “repair”/add quads.
now if i cut a face other faces get messed up and i need to tweak them before they are back to quads.

If you have triangles after knifing you can always merge 2 of the verticies on the triangle to make it go into oblivion. After I found I could do that to clean up my Dragon model it’s really useful.

Yes but some reason it doesn’t always goes that easy.
That sometimes messes up the shape of your desired form.
And you will be cutting and cutting untill its a mess.
I know lots of you can easily work their way around this.
But i say give the ability, not everyone is that flexible in 3D software.

One of the reasons n-gons are a bad thing is because of the math used to calculate a center for the polygon. It will always be off a bit and any deformation can quickly aggravate the situation to a point where the mesh starts to pinch in places where it should be smooth. You see this in animations using poorly constructed models. For still images, it’s less important as long as any n-gons are reasonably flat and roughly square/round in shape. Once you start to stretch an n-gon in one direction the center distorts.

edit; It’s not necessary to weld vertices’s to join two triangles. There is a specific mesh tool do this. It’s labeled ‘Join Triangles’.

I don’t agree that ngons are bad, they have their use just as much as any other modeling tool. Just, you need to model cleaner. Prepare how you plan to model before diving into it. I always shouted out for the big NGONs and during the mean time learned how I ought to have modeled in the first place.

Ngons are a very useful feature, and one that I will still wait for:yes:. That being said, as Briggs pointed out, (the man who is behind the Bmesh set which features powerful modelling tools… Dude you are my hero BTW:ba:) these tools are going to have to wait to be integrated for a little while yet due to the huge refracters that are soon to take place within blender.

I am not sure if I am correct by saying this as I haven’t looked into it too much but Houdini also dosen’t seem to support ngons neither. Could be wrong so don’t quote me as saying this is the gospel truth. Can’t find support for them in their features list.:no:

Here is a link to check

Reason I bring it up is because most times even if you use ngons for organic shapes you should convert everything to quad later anyway. So why not just learn how to model it differently. :RocknRoll: That being said, I must get back to work.

there are no valid arguments against ngons… after the first subdivision level all you have are quads anyway.

at least Briggs is thinking about them!

omg n-gons, run for the hills!!!111 …My god people, look beyond your own little world. Temporary n-gons and the tools that go with them, let box-model folk arrive at a good mesh faster and easier than useless tesselation. Not everybody is a fan of a poly-by-poly workflow you know.

Just watch some wings3d or silo3d timelaps videos.

(Btw people don’t need n-gons to mess up their meshes, browsing this forum makes that clear to anyone…)

QFT! :yes:

ps. used to think negatively like some in this thread do of ngons, once… that was when I was still at the very best a intermediate modeler, I consider myself a advanced modeler now, and man, I want n-gons, they. just. save. sooooooo. much. time. oh yeah, and headaches…

:-)’’ ‘’’

But that’s the thing with Ngons, you fix/restore Quads way faster because you can manipulate the faces really easily.
As I’m working with Blender now i have a really hard time how i can cut and tweak edges/faces to get the desired shape to extrude and stuff like that.
At college we were teached to end with quads =P
NGONS = YES PLEASE

If this ends up in a flame war, my appologies:
N-Gons are not good for subdivision modeling. Their like triangles. BUT, what they are good for is that certain tools are available ONLY with N-gon/ winged edge technology. Indeed it is far easier to cut and arrange loops with the tools that comes with N-gons, but for subdivision modeling, the target stays all quad.