Jodan Peterson?

And therein lies the rub. If, and this is a very big if, gender reassignment is actually helping these people and making them feel better, then more power to them. However, data suggests otherwise. At the very least it doesn’t seem to be reducing suicide rates outside the first couple of years after the so called transition.

High suicide rates are largely the result of anti trans bias, not being trans.

If people like Jordan Peterson could treat trans people with decency and politeness, there would be a whole lot less pressure to kill yourself, don’t you think?

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Indeed, but at the same time it’s undeniable that the bias exists, and extremely unlikely that it will go away any time within a currently living patient’s lifetime. You have to acknowledge that by going through gender reassignment, a patient is willingly walking into the lion’s den - no matter how optimistic one may be about the hypothetical future society.

We may wish it wasn’t so, but that’s the way it is. In light of this, doctors and patients should act accordingly.

I’m about to head out, so I can’t read it indepth, but at a glance, I think that study focuses more on trans people pre-op, while they’re still dealing with the worst aspects of gender dysphoria, than it does the lives and mental health of post-op patients.

I’ve met a fair bit of trans people. Nobody I’ve met decided to transition because it is easy, they know they are going into the lion’s den, And they still choose it. They know it might kill them, but they are still driven to do it. Who am I to stand in the way of that kind of drive?

People can choose to smoke, even though there are well documented causal pathways to cancer and heart disease.

People can choose to drive, even though thousands of people die every day in car crashes.

People can buy a gun, even though statistically, the person most likely to be shot with it is themself.

So people can choose to transition genders, even though exposing themself to the cultural bias against that increases their risk of suicide.

Convincing anyone that feels uncomfortable in their own skin out of transitioning isn’t my place, just like it isn’t my place to convince everyone to quit smoking.

But here’s the important difference: Cultural bias can change, smoking will still give you cancer. I can’t talk to people on a forum and make smoking less dangerous. But if we talk about these issues and come to an understanding, even if it’s agreeing to disagree, that makes being a trans person a little bit safer. @Piotr_Adamowicz I really appreciate what you said here:

If we can all just be polite with people, even if they do something we disagree with, we’re making the world better. The cultural bias isn’t going to go away, you are correct, but we can chip away at it for a while, and smooth things out a little. All that it takes is being polite and kind.

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I’d never heard of Jordan Peterson until a few months ago. Now I see him mentioned all over Reddit and YouTube (both critics and fans). I went ahead and put 12 Rules for Life on my reading list, but many of the reviews don’t sound promising. I’m not a huge fan of self-help books anyway, so we’ll see.

I don’t feel I know enough about the transgender stuff to comment on that.

That’s a fair position to take, but perhaps if we found it within ourselves to convince more people not to smoke and own guns, more of them would be alive today?

Suicide also requires drive, and even a sort of courage, and people do it because they think it will solve their problems. And yet most would agree it’s better to stop people from doing it, because it merely trades one problem (being unhappy) for another (being, well, dead).

Gender reassignment is also a thing people do because they think it will solve their problems, but if it also merely trades one set of problems (gender dysphoria) for another (widespread discrimination), then perhaps it shouldn’t be practiced so lightly as it is now.

I say all this not because I hate transgender people. On the contrary, I want them to be happy and productive. I want all people to be happy and productive. I just have doubts whether this is the right path.

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I can understand that, there is no free lunch after all.

Cultural pressures and discrimination affect everyone though, and that’s why I am focused on that portion of the equation. The cultural biases against trans people are a lot of the same biases that promote gender dysphoria among the cis population.

If there were no bullies in high school telling the weaker boys to man up, or that they throw like a girl, or policing what ‘real’ girls look like and how often they should shave their legs, or any number of other gendered judgements … There would probably be less gender dysphoria to begin with, and there very well could be less people looking to transition as a result.

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Does a wicked Kermit the frog impression. That’s not just meme/mean. Thiz guys brought his kermit puppet to his lectures before. He has a sense of humor about himself. Which everyone should.

Suicide and all that aside, the life expectancy of a trans person is about 30 years old because of the incredibly high rates of violence and murder they experience. It starts with the attitude of “they’re sick/weird/broken” and ends with anger and violence (usually because someone feels they were tricked or deceived). Transphobia kills. An attitude of acceptance is the first step in reducing violence towards them. It’s been a major drive in reducing other hate crimes. The thinly veiled attitudes of eugenics in this thread is frankly disgusting and you guys should be horribly embarrassed to even give voice to such an idea.

I really enjoy Jordan Peterson and the rest of the IDW for that matter. They make me think and I like that. :slight_smile: We definitely need more people that are willing to talk about matters that are hard, and talk to each other, not past each other.

The natural world has no intent of any kind; but, genetic glitches are something that has naturally happened since genes have existed. Genetic glitches transmitted through generations is essentially what evolution is.

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Hmm I didn’t get that assumption from his quote at all.

It just seems like he’s commenting on the fact that the Bible is a cornerstone of Western Ethics. Which is true. It doesn’t seem to have any sort of religious slant to it at all TBH or imply it’s better than any other religion/culture.

It’s just a fact that many Western countries have founded their laws/ethics upon the Bible. He even adds in “for better or for worse” and by studying how the Bible came about and/or what it says can say a lot about the human mind.

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Jordan is interesting as an entryway, but he seems to be caught in a logic loop when it comes to individualism vs collectivism. Does he not realize the Western virtues which he so praises will not survive save for collective effort on the part of the Western people?

I haven’t decided or sussed out what his true motives are, but he’s one to watch, for better or worse.

Might be, depends on how dirty your room is.

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You say that as if the “West” is any definable historical idea and not a nebulous phrase that changes who falls under it depending on whatever is convenient at the time

High IQ, very smart, calm and controlled person. Great ethics. Logical. If only the world had a few more people with his intellect and self-control.

I was thinking about this post the other day and while I may disagree with him on some points, he does make arguments based on very valid reasons, and not just some vague cry to higher moral. He lays out the cause and effect, he points out why we should care and why he does care. And more importantly he addresses the topics at hand and don’t dismiss a concern because it came from a bad person.

I may not agree with all of his views, but I do think more people need to embrace those qualities, right now it has gotten to the point where we call black people white supremacists and jewish people nazi, and there is that one guy whom it is alright to call him by his skin color…and that is a breakdown of logic that we should all be concerned with.

The internet has made an insignificant viewpoint of a few available to millions where millions think that is the viewpoint of millions others.

This all blown up when “baby boomers” got hold of facebook and internet not knowing they get feed with lies that are either overblown or just full head on retarded.

While confirming their skewed worldview based on information that has not been confirmed and not following it up.

Peterson is not a good person no matter how logical it sounds when there is no empathy behind his opinions.

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