You wouldn’t. It’s only good for people who know how to use it, or have the time to learn it (it’s only then that the benefits become clear).
That brings to mind something about real men and real computers.
Koba
It really bugs me when people make statements like this. And it’s always the users who do it. Did you know, for example, that OSX is completely based on UNIX? Darwin, to be specific. And Darwin is based on elements of FreeBSD, the Mach 3 microkernel… How can you say that Apple is innovative if their core OS is “ripped off” from other projects?
Take another example. The mouse. Apple refused to expand to more than 2 buttons for years, even though Microsoft has been using 2,3,4+ button mice for years. Apple started using a multi button mouse in late 2005. Now that’s original.
There’s a host of features in Windows that are completely new, but people don’t tend to pick up on them because they’re too busy complaining that Microsoft “copied Apple”. Have you ever used OneNote? Amazing Microsoft program. Visual Studio. Personally, I much prefer WMP to Itunes, because it has features that Itunes doesn’t (such as better compatibility, doesn’t run background processes that hog resources, looks nicer <- personal opinion).
There’s probably other improvements in Vista that I can’t remember because I don’t have both OSX and Vista in front of me, but you get the idea. Making a blanket statement like “Microsoft only copies Apple” is just wrong. Of course Microsoft copies some of the advances made by Apple, but Apple copies Microsoft and everyone else too. Only, Apple is sometimes a lot slower (read: multi button mice). In general, Microsoft make good products. I’ve used (modern) linux- Dapper Ubuntu and various Fedora distros- but I don’t use them any more because linux is generally more of a pain than Windows. With Dapper, when I wanted to try the new XGL I had to spend about 2 days downloading dependancies, editing config files, compiling various parts, sorting out conflicts with Nvidia, etc. If I had no idea about programming, I wouldn’t have been able to do it. If I want to try out something new in Windows, it normally takes me about 5min to download and 5min to install. Easy, and as a result, I can be much more productive.
Apple, I agree, is a fairly good OS. It’s not the best (in my opinion), but that doesn’t make it bad. Linux is a good OS, but it isn’t (yet) a desktop replacement for most people. Linux is very good for servers. But there’s no way you can say that any one group “only” copies the others. Just because you can’t see the improvements, doesn’t mean they aren’t there.
Oh and OSx has this feature where if you tripple click on the Trash can, it deletes your entire desktop contents.
that pisses me off. Windows vista doesn’t have that feature which is great. it looks like they took some good things from OSX and made them way better, and got rid of OSX’s bugs…
Alltaken
Most of the effects have some intuitive purpose. For example windows expand from where they originate by default. I turn it off though so they just appear but the point is that they make additions that actually improve your workflow instead of purely being eyecandy - there are exceptions but I mean in general. If Microsoft wanted to make the system better then they should lower the amount of popups and dialogs:
they should promote open standards over Windows media and Office formats and even go so far as to become unix compliant.
If you can see the entire contents then that would be ok. If you can jump to a particular window instead of just scrolling too, that would be nice too.
I installed XP SP2 about a month ago and it still has a text input at the beginning for selecting partitions and things - I don’t think this is just the bios because it prepares Windows for installation. About halfway through it goes into a proper GUI.
It’s bad because they don’t give Apple any credit for it and they are stealing business from them. This is especially noticable in Windows users who will still refuse to support Apple. When you see how much they have done for the computer industry: first personal computer, first palmtop, firewire, providing users with a standardized interface on top of a unix base and many more things and still no gratitude? How does it make you feel when commercial 3D apps take stuff form Blender and don’t give them any credit. The impression I get from Windows users is that you expect the minorities to do all the hard work and then you give your hard earned cash to some faceless corporation who is blatantly taking advantage of all that hard work. How does that story sound familiar?
Tell me how to do it then without hacking the XP installer CD. I have a USB2 drive formatted with an 80GB Fat32 partition and when I try to install it, it says that Windows can’t be installed on the partition. Of course you would know more about it than Microsoft:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/storage/usb-boot.mspx
"Current versions of Windows should not be installed to USB hard disk drives because Windows does not support USB hard disk drives as the primary boot device. "
By all means answer the other points instead of saying they are all wrong.
There’s a difference between licensing and ripping-off. It’s innovative because it’s the first commercially usable unix operating system that doesn’t drive you crazy trying to install stuff. Also, you missed out NextStep being the basis of OS X. This business was founded by Steve Jobs when he was kicked out of Apple and the innovation in that system was mind-blowing at the time. They even built Pixar’s Renderman into the system:
This developed into OS X when Apple bought Next and Steve came back to the company.
Apple refused to sell multi-button mice. Big difference.
Ok let’s recap:
Microsoft copies/steals Apple’s entire interface, which Apple took legally from Xerox.
Microsoft copies the ipod and makes the Zune.
Microsoft copies the itunes music store and makes Urge.
Microsoft copies the OS X interface to make Vista.
I’m not saying Apple don’t ever copy people but rarely if ever in such a blatantly obvious way.
Is this the rumor going round the playground these days? Was it some obscure bug in 10.0 or something? Here’s another one: if you cough, fart and sneeze at the same time, you die. :eek:
So you think stealing is ok? So if I steal your house and make it better by adding an extension then you’ll be happy out in the cold? That’s ok then, I’m catching a flight right now. And how have they made it better? It’s uglier, slower and less intuitive.
You know, people always bash companies, artists… that “steal” ideas from others.
When a band shows influences from other band two possible things may happen:
- the band gets praised and we state that the band “has its roots in…” or that the band “has invented a new genre with its combination of… and …”
- the band gets bashed for “stealing from…” or that they “ripped of …”
That’s just plain ridiculous. I mean, a baby shows its parents likeness as well, right?
EVERYTHING has its roots in what came before it or either it shares ideas or either it has ideas opposed to the ideas of its “roots”.
I think it’s wrong bashing microsoft for taking ideas and improving upon them. After all, we can’t keep on reinventing the wheel, right?
The reason why I like to bash ms is because of its philosophy. No, not the one they say they have but the one they act upon. There “embrace, extend, extinguish” method is not one which I think is ethical. Ever read a novel where corporations own everything and everyone? That’s what we’re heading to if ms keep up it’s killing spree. Without competition, a company has no reason to improve or in any way provide a better service or at a lower price. If you’re the only one with a cure for cancer, then you can ask any price you want. If there are several people with a cure for cancer, then you can’t just do that.
Hmmh… heard that Vista takes up 15G of space. Is that true?
I’m just going to pick up on your recap because your last post was fairly mammoth, other people can take the other points…
“Microsoft copies/steals…”
So you’re saying that because Microsoft uses a window interface system, they’ve copied Apple’s “entire interface”? What about linux, or Sun, or any other system that uses windows? Even flash player has support for internal windows now. I can’t see that that is a valid argument. That’s like saying that Blender copied Max or Maya for having a 3D window.
“ipod and makes”
Again, I don’t see how you make the connection. The Ipod is a music player. The Zune is a music player. Creative, Archos, Samsung etc. make hundreds of music and video players. Before MP3 players existed, sony made portable CD players. What you’re saying is that no companies should ever enter a market that already exists, because they would be copying the competitors.
“itunes…”
Itunes copied Napster, therefore Apple always copies Shawn Fanning. Is that logic valid? Do you see my point?
“Microsoft…”
Microsoft has copied probably hundreds of interfaces to make the Vista interface. Vista is a product, it makes sense that Microsoft wants it to be the best. However, to say that it’s “copied” is flattering Apple, IMO. Obviously, Microsoft has done a lot of work to improve and build on ideas that other products already have, and some ideas that are completely new. When people talk about Microsoft they sometimes forget that the actual programmers working on Microsoft products are some of the best in the world.
“I’m not saying Apple don’t ever copy people but rarely if ever in such a blatantly obvious way.”
The only reason you say that is because the Apple fanboys tend to pick up on anything Microsoft copies and criticize them for it. If OSX were the more popular OS, then chances are you would always hear about how Apple had copied a bunch of features from Microsoft. As it stands, there’s no point in picking up on the features that Apple copies because no-one cares.
One last point:
Are you saying that Blender gives credit to every program it copies features from? At the most recent BConf there was a whole session on “Features you want in Blender” and people were encouraged to show these features working in other (commercial) programs. I don’t know about you, but as a programmer I would be flattered if some big name company used my ideas in their program. A commercial 3D app that has some of Blender’s features doesn’t make Blender any worse.
Your point about the minorities doing the hard work implies that as soon as Apple does something new Microsoft can just copy it straight into Windows. It doesn’t really work like that. Apple may have a new idea, but Microsoft would still have to do all the programming to implement it into Windows. The “hard work” involved in adding new features is normally the implementation, not the idea itself, and the implementation would have to be done by both Apple and Microsoft independently.
Totally agree. I think this is the biggest problem of the Linux. There is no EASY way to install programs. You need to download a lot of dependencies to make something work. In Windows (Im not a fan of Windows) you have instalated any program with only a few clicks. In Linux, you need to compile the source, resolve the dependencies and conflicts, and after that, if you have luck, the program will run (but is no warranty they will). And if you can find some precompiled binaries (RPM, DEB) or is not suitable for your distro, or you need to download a lot of extra packages (dependencies) or is an older version of the program you want to install. In concluzion, to make the things running in Linux is a PAIN.
That, unfortunately is so true. I think, that if Linux could sort out these problems, then Windows will have real competition.
Yeah, but Windows invented the whole ‘windows’ things, yet everyone copied that. Maybe every other OS should just shove off instead of just ripping off Microsoft? jeez.
Yeah, but Windows invented the whole ‘windows’ thing
Not by a long shot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_graphical_user_interface
The original proper GUI with icons and windows was by Xerox Parc.
Microsoft don’t invent. They steal. Of course everyone borrows off other people’s ideas but M$ takes this to a whole new level - there is no innovation at Microsoft. They buy out other people’s ideas and pass them off as their own. I should find that list of companies they bought out (“embraces” but I can’t seem to find it.
Koba
May I state that Dapper was not originally setup to use XGL. Dapper was a stable version to be used by offices & servers & the home user. At the time of Dapper release XGL was still very unstable, the edgy eft release does not support XGL neither. So complaining XGL isnt easy to setup on Dapper just remember that XGL isnt official support by Ubuntu yet.
If you want a Linux distro that support XGL out the box try Mandriva, or Fedora(I believe there new version supports XGL officially).
God damn your clever research.
But you’re exaggerating.
I am aware of this… At the time, XGL was just being released, and there was quite a bit of information on the Ubuntu forums about getting XGL to work with ubuntu. XGL itself is made (available?) by Novell, who also make SUSE linux, but SUSE didn’t yet officially support XGL either.
My point is that if XGL were a Windows program, then this would be easy. Microsoft supports very few programs “out of the box” (your phrase), but this isn’t a problem because you can expect things to work. With linux, there are so many complications that unless the program you want is explicitly supported by the distro you have, chances are there’s going to be complications when you install it. edit: To me, there’s a difference between being “unstable” and impossible to install without compiling and changing complicated system configurations.
Again with the blanket statements! That’s like saying “there is no innovation with Blender” because Blender uses a lot of the same techniques as all of the other major 3D apps. What about Microsoft OneNote, or Visual Studio etc… or basically the entire Office suite. MS Office is the most expansive office suite available (AFAIK), so tell me how it isn’t an innovation.
“They buy out other…”
Let’s take a look at Google this time. Everyone loves Google, don’t they? Have you seen the new Google Documents and Spreadsheets? That’s based on a web service called “writley” that no longer exists because google “embraced” it. And now it is “pass[ed] off as their own”. I’m sure there are other examples, but this is the most recent of googles’ acquisitions.
My point is that if XGL were a Windows program, then this would be easy. Microsoft supports very few programs “out of the box” (your phrase), but this isn’t a problem because you can expect things to work. With linux, there are so many complications that unless the program you want is explicitly supported by the distro you have, chances are there’s going to be complications when you install it.
The Dapper distro was not supported for XGL. Just like Areo from Vista is not supported for XP.
But Dapper can support XGL much easier than XP could support Areo.
My choice of OS is driven by the applications that I use.
I was still using Win 98 up until this summer, when the new versions of the apps I wanted to use required XP.
Linux is a royal pain in the butt when it comes to supporting hardwared. Unless of course, you check which hardware it supports then buy that hardware first. XP supports just about everything natively, making the install generally a no brainer for whatever hardware you have. No searching the net / newsgroups / forums / IRC for the secret combination of commands / config files etc etc to get a video card / modem talking to the OS.
I’m not a computer newbie either. I have built computers, programmed them and use them everyday. I don’t want to spend time on things that should be automatically handled by the OS. I have setup boxes with Linux on them, but switched back to Windoze, when I found simple tasks / setup that took minutes in 'Doze took hours/days … unsolveable in Linux.
The “hacker” side of me enjoys playing around with Linux, but to actually get anything done, I have to use something that works easily.
LInux being “free” vs commerical apps is no excuse for making it hard to configure or use.
Mike
XGL is designed for Linux. Dapper is the first version of linux that it appeared on (publicly). I believe this is the thread it first appeared on: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=127090
I know that XGL did not intend to support Dapper, but who did they intend to support? When XGL came out there were no distro’s that officially supported it because the dev version of SUSE hadn’t been released.
Aero is something completely different. It was designed for Windows Vista. XGL was designed for Linux (specifically the X11 window system), but it’s up to the specific distro to support it. Aero is designed for Vista, so it’s a given that Vista supports it. My point is- if you download a linux program, you can only use if if your distro supports it, but if you download a windows program you know it will run. Comparing different distros to XP and Vista implies that XP and Vista are in the same generation, but obviously that’s not true.
How much of that is cached shared libs etc, this ‘new’ (hah) pre-emptive loading of programs ‘you might want to use’ ? Does vista even have a tool to categorize memory usage?
As I said in another thread, your gonna see a lot of ‘It’s using all my memory, and I have nothing running’ until people figure out that cached memory is ‘released’* as soon as an app asks for the space.
*That’s how it’s supposed to work.
When I had a bare install of an rc premium edition on a virtual machine it took up ~8.5 gig, either way I can get a fully loaded system on 8.5 gig, not just a base OS, a crippled media player, and IE.
That’s a bit narrow minded, stuff is mostly GPL, and your distribution will support it, the question is how much work do you have to do to make it work.
As XGL, AIGLX, compiz/beryl and friends mature ( lets face it, it’s barely out of CVS versions that ‘work most of the time’ ) and the APIs binding the parts together stabilize, that I can see larger scale adoption compositing window managers, and becoming standard parts, even if optional, of most DE setups.
I’m gonna stick my neck out a bit, but from memory, it’s probably about 12 months since the first time I ran XGL on this machine.
Holy shit you people post a lot.