Kill Horizontal Buttons?! :( Please say NO!

Although William Reynish’s Conference talk about Blender’s GUI was really great and all, and I agree with most of it, but the part about killing horizontal buttons was sad, at least for me… :frowning: And there was only 3 votes against it! :frowning:

I use Blender for years now. Mostly on SXGA resolution (1280x1024) and I use horizontal buttons setup for modeling. It’s true that I also use vertical buttons setup in animation screen, but most of the time I use modeling screen, so I can honestly say that I mostly use horizontal buttons setup on that resolution.

William said that are monitors bigger and wider every year… True, but there are also smaller and smaller every year on the other side… So that wasn’t very strong argument for killing horizontal buttons…

On example, on my small Nettop with WVGA resolution (800x480) which is super wide display(!), I also use horizontal buttons (when I need them), else I use full screen 3D display and I switching beetween this two modes with ctrl-up arrow key. I really love Blender’s current flexibility! Of course, on such (standard) resolutions you need to have big buttons to be able to read text on the buttons. So, on that resolution are vertical buttons super clumsy, because you need to scroll several screens up and down to see them all. So again, I can honestly say that I use horizontal buttons on that resolution EXCLUSIVELY!

OK, the main reason against horizontal buttons is a small unused empty space gap under buttons… I think it’s really sad that we’ll lost current great flexibility because of small empty… After all they can make a default screens with all nice & compact vertical buttons, but PLEASE leave us option to setup Blender in an old ugly way too! :o

I don’t know. I use horizontal button all the time. But its nothing to worry about. You just have to get used that they are on the side. If you think about it, all the programs use vertical menus and buttons. 3dmax, maya, photoshop, xsi, zbrush, gimp and so on. I mean everyone uses vertical menus.

Ha, I will quote Ton Roosendaal here:
“if everyone likes it, it must be stupid!”

:smiley:

yeah sorry popski, I’m going to have to vote in favour of the changes he has suggested as well… main reason being consistency in the UI. For me the rationale is similar to the way I (currently) design website layouts. Fixed width, height variable to needs. Adobe have just done similar in CS4, finally getting rid of the awkward little properties box (flash) for a panel system. I know it’s different, but it’s also simpler and cleaner - this is good. And also we still get to have the split the screen up thing that makes blenders UI really cool and customizable.

Hm another very sad news for me. :frowning:

I fear the new gui will be the death of Blender… for me… :frowning:

No matter! I think the new Blender is for the amateurs and beginners who dont use Blender only moving the Suzanne model up and down and turning a sun type lamp.

But! New with Blender there will be many new users! Many good Suzanne renders with one pink light! Great!

I use horizontal buttons all the time… it’s much easier to find stuff, I find. Surely, this would be one of the plus points for blender vs other apps, that you can customize the interface the way you want? I haven’t seen any videos or talks or anything, but what was the reason for switching to vertical? Please tell me there would be an option to go back to horizontal?

EDIT: Endi, we posted at the same time, lol

Ah! A new user with Blender 2.5!!!

http://www.etyekfilm.hu/stupidblender.jpg

You could keep horisontal buttons, but this is what you’d get:

http://www.reynish.com/files/hori_buttons.png

In fact in 2.48 it already breaks in many panels like constraints, bones, etc, and even in the materials:

http://www.reynish.com/files/hori_buttons_248.png

The panels are going to have to vary in height, and that just doesn’t work with a horisontal layout, even if you really want it to.

Ofcourse, depending on how 2.5 shapes up, and if Python is used to manage the GUI layer, you could have the panels ‘wrap around’ in order to acommodate horisontal buttons, meaning any panel longer than the view just wraps around to the next collumn. But then again it’s not a good solution because buttons would be jumping around the screen all the time whenever you resize the view.

-W

Oh, and Endi, please stop the FUD! 2.5 is about making Blender faster, more consistent, more flexible, less modal - how does that equate to making it just like 3DS MAX, or just for children?

Look, nobody wants to ruin Blender, nobody wants it to behave just like 3DS MAX, nobody wants to make anything slower, less organised. Blenders UI is pretty good, but far from perfect, so relax, and stop spreading fear.

I use the horizontal menu’s all the time.
I like to middle mouse scroll them.
I like to open & close them.
I like to grab them (middle mouse hold) & shake them sometimes.
I like Dock them together.
Sometimes I like to break them apart too.
The horizontal buttons are a fundamental part of Blenders interface.
I do not want to have to scroll vertically.
Horizontal buttons are very useful in a number of situations.
They are as natural as flipping the pages of a book.
I do agree with all/most of the talk. Some very good points were made.
But I too must disagree.
Removing options that would result in limiting UI layout customization is a backwards step.

seriously endi, don’t you have anything better to be doing with your time?

Agreed - it would be a step backwards to limit options. I use the horizontal buttons because that’s what I’m used to. I’m sure I’ll get used to the vertical layout, and I’m sure it makes sense, but are you guys saying that they will absolutely stop users from placing buttons at the bottom, horizontally? That seems very un blender-like. You can already place buttons in a vertical config. Confused…I hope thay don’t force you to use a multiple view screen all the time either…I’d have to revert to the current version. 4 views of the same object confuses me. It might be just something in my head…

So - are we talking about the end of a customizable blender screen layout?

Also - Endi, I’m lost…why would this new blender be for inexperienced users only?

Calm down, people. Once you get used to the blender interface, you’ll find it’s faster and more efficient, remember? :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT: Just let the developers do their thing. What reason do any of you have to be getting so ticked off, epecially when most of you aren’t entirely sure what’s going on, anyway.

3dmedieval.
No we are not talking about that, that’s how rumours are started. If you look at the 2.5 branch you’ll see the framework of the customisable non-overlapping gui is still there, always as it ever was.

ok if the horizontal buttons gone away how can i make a good layout with UV editor like this?
I use this layout about 95% and cant find better, maybe im miss? i havet 16:9 monitor :frowning:

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/3683/horizontalwh9.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/horizontalwh9.jpg/1/w500.png

without horizontal buttons layout . preserve lot of space and cant find good layout for enough large spaces for buttons, uv editor, and 3d view like this:

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/1897/nohorizontalpa2.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/nohorizontalpa2.jpg/1/w500.png

i dont want switch every time to predefined layouts when i make uv :S

I personally don’t see what the problem with horizontal buttons are… okay as your screenshot shows, William, non-square panels don’t look very nice and you have to mmb to navigate them (or just drag the button space to make it larger), but I don’t think that is reason enough to get rid of the horizontal buttons altogether - I think that would take away from the ‘customizability’ of the interface, as there are situations where horiz buttons would be usefull perhaps.

I think maybe the UI focus could be made on making vertical buttons more intuitive and easier to use, and change the default setup to have vertical buttons (for the new users!). I don’t see why horizontal buttons couldn’t be left as an option though (for those users who don’t like change!).

Anyway your presentation was great William!

hey wait… all of this gives me idea…

When I saw the screen layouts, I realized/remembered that yes, horizontal menu is critical to my preferred screen layout (thanks to squareline above), and yet the point william makes about vertical menus/panels is also critically correct and needed. Then my wierd brain started trying to find ways of having my cake AND eating it…

Have a look at this and tell me what you think. Nav is easy, everything is just mmb drag, and each column has the option of behaving as william suggested in his video

http://www.ultramedia.com.au/blenders/081101_233500_blenderGuiIdea_01.jpg

AND it’s nearly identical to blender as it is EXCEPT when you MMB down on a long panel, the short ones stay where they are so you can still see them… in other words exactly the same as blender already is except that only the panel you MMB drag on gets panned vertically… It preserves/protects the horizontal layouts, and I don’t think any other software is doing it (you know, like for instance max wink wink endi) so blender gets to keep it’s whole unique ui identity…

…vertical panels (edit: or rather the exclusion of horizontal panels) sounds like something new and people are over reacting to this… WE FEAR CHANGE!

But think about it for a minute: the other stuff mentioned (about context, tool options, commands and properties being separate) will mean that people will probably lay out their workspace much much differently to now…I think that the whole thing will be much better for beginners AND power users.

Endi your comments are becoming more and more idiotic by the second… a “pro user” like yourself (aren’t you the only “pro” user on these forums?) will adjust within a day or two or you’re overpaid.

for Mirror Transp panel vary height problem, just thinking about, maybe if the every panels have same sized and if the options haven’t enough space just put the other panels, because the panels can put together and collapse it so it not preserve much space.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1052/mirror3nm6.th.jpghttp://img520.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif

What if rather than this, in 2.5 all expirenced and new users get new features and everything!
But for UI, there’s a “Newbie Mode” and “Pro Mode”. And Pro Mode is where the pro’s go.
That’s us. The members of Blenderartists.
(P.S. We should establish a Congress for the Forums too)

well…im definitely not for getting rid of it…
Artists should have the option of working any way they’re comfy with…
why get rid of it???..if you don’t like horizontal…well…use vertical…what stopping anyone from doing that now???
Doesn’t make sense somehow to generalize that way…Can’t see how getting rid of an option like that would help the U.I.
???
Personally I use both…depends on the situation and how it makes sense to manage my screen real estate for efficiency.

Sure hope they dont take it away :frowning:

Blenderer:

Your solution is interesting, and it may be possible to do something like this to preserve horisontal layouts. However, it will require a lot of scrolling, and also waste space whenever a panel happens to be shorter that the height of the view. It makes it way slower to have to first scroll down, then select an option, and then back up again.
Also, like I said, you could have the panels wrap their content around, to show all the information in a horisontal layout, but again, that means buttons will move around. Both of these solutions would allow us to keep horisontal panel layouts, but will be slower in use than vertical.

squareline:

Splitting overflowing content into other panels is basically what’s been done already many places in Blender (see Mesh Tools 1 and 2). The problems with this are pretty obvious: it requires a lot of clicking, and it is way more confusing because related content is split apart. Also, the more panels you have to manage, the slower your workflow.

blenderman345:

Having a seperate mode for beginners and pros is bad for a number of reasons:
-When you go from ‘noob’ to ‘pro’ mode, you will have to relearn everything. It adds huge headaches for documentation and features (do we include all features in both, etc?)
-It will force us to maintain seperate versions of the UI, instead of one superior, clean, well designed one.
-Good UI design should mean that Blender becomes both faster and easier too, because things are more organised, consistent, non-modal (all of which improve speed of workflow, and ease of use at the same time).
-Users arent usually ‘noobs’ or ‘pros’. Often times people use Blender professionally, but may not have used for long, or they only know part of it, and locking them into different fences isn’t going to help them in the long run.