I’m sure this is going to turn into a huge flaming argument, but I have to make my point, so let’s just get this thing started.
The left mouse button is used for selection in VIRTUALLY EVERY APPLICATION IN EXISTENCE, but blender uses the right mouse button instead! The default should be changed to LMB for selection!
When the transform widget was added, it was immediately made default to have active. I almost never use that thing. I only use it for flattening faces on by the normal, or doing other types of special axis transforms. Besides this, I hate that thing (sorry theeth). But I’m glad it defaults to on, and that we can turn it off. Having it on by default makes it so that noobs don’t have to go searching for it, and it IS helpful to noobs. But it’s the same thing with LMB for selection!!! Every other application is that way, and so noobs will expect it! Everyone else who already works with RMB for selection can simply set the preference back how they like, just like what we do with widgets!
IMHO, RMB for selection is the most backward thing ever. I’m not interested in hearing why you like it or why you think it’s better, I want to hear good reasons for why LMB for selection should not be default.
I don’t notice…but then saying that I switched the option to LMB and saved it as default anyway.
There is some logic to the way it was set up however, in that clicking the LMB by default places the cursor - which is the way most applications work. I don’t know of any application that uses the RMB to do that.
I think that the argument should not actually be why the LMB is default therefore, but how frequent / important the cursor placement is in comparrison to all other operations. That is afterall, what the LMB is doing. Justify / reverse that, and things might be different.
Endi, because noobs expect that not everything will be completely alien.
Sphynx, no other application uses LMB to set the 3D cursor because no other application has a 3D cursor. If you’re trying to compare blender to a text editor, then consider that selection in text editors is also done with the LMB. Users do not place the 3D cursor with the mouse buttons nearly enough to justify making it the LMB. When I’m placing the cursor, I tend to snap it to objects. Usually, the only time when I’m moving the cursor with the mouse is when I want it out of my way.
tedi, ooo, good argument. I’ll have to see if I can use that one on Ton to make the widget off by default.
I notice that sometimes when people write tutorials and say “select with lmb” or “select with rmb”, it’s often based on that particular users preference. It’s somewhat confusing sometimes that we have that option to switch it, and people have their configuration set, but when they want to follow a tutorial that has another set of configurations, it can lead to frustration. I was use to the RMB for selection, then they had the choice to switch, then i switched, and i’m sometimes confused what i put. basically what i’m saying is…it would be nice to have stuck with one choice, but now there’s 2 so we have to live with it…
nam, what you’ve said is part of the reason I’m making this argument.
We are working on the BSoD and we all must follow the default theme, which is obviously the logical thing to do. I use the LMB, so on the infrequent occations when I have to tell the user to use the RMB to select, I’m reminded of this conflict. I switched to LMB for selection in part because I also work with other applications, such as rhino and wings and xsi, and none of these have a RMB-for-selection option. So perhaps I should also be making the argument that by switching to LMB for default, we would also be saving a lot of people the pain of readjusting, which has to come someday, unless all you ever do is stay at home and only use blender.
Actually, I never mentioned the 3D cursor at all - I just mentioned cursor. I was nottrying to compare Blender with text editor - don’t read things into what I have written. But take into account that text selection, buttons etc in Blender uses the LMB anyway - it’s only the 3D cursor that behaves in this way.
If you feel that strongly about it, why don’t you just do what I do and set your mouse to use the LMB? The way you have answered some of these posts so far, it sounds like you are making a mountain out of a mole-hill for no reason whatsoever.
I’ve tried to use LMB for selection for some time now and it is really useful when I don’t have a mouse attached to my iBook (you remember, no right mouse button). However, when I use a mouse, I figured, that it feels much better to use the right mouse button, dunno why. So I personally would not like it, if this part of the configuration would be removed.
About the newbies using blender, I think nobody gets around reading some tutorials, at least because Blender deals with some problems in another way than other apps (there is no standard for anything and each commercial software designer wants to make switching from his product as hard as possible anyway). The basic tutorials, I read, however did not expect a different setup and when you are reading advanced ones, you should already know how to select things.
So for me, it is more a kind of a religious war than a change that is really needed. If you want this change anyway, do it yourself, submit a patch and see if it is accepted. Everything else would bind ressources, that may be used better elsewhere.
I’ve been saying this for months. In fact, Blender should use the same hotkeys as the host operating system for common tasks wherever possible, 3D software is hard enough to learn as it is without moving common operations to hotkeys that don’t match what you’re used to.
Okay, new rule: don’t reply if you’re not paying attention. tedi, sphynx, I’m already using the LMB for selection, I’ve eluded to this at least twice now. Good on ya.
avlex, XSI actually has a Maya mode to help Maya users transition to XSI, so I don’t buy the argument about making it difficult for people to switch. It’s a double edged sword. If it’s difficult to switch from an application, then that might also mean it’s difficult to switch to an application, and no company wants that. I have been thinking about the patch option. I’m thinking they might slap it down, but It’s worth a shot when I get the time.
sphynx, to tell me to not read into what you are saying is to tell me to try not to interpret what you have written. One moment you’re saying cursor–not 3D cursor, the next you’re telling me you’re not talking about text editors. So what are you talking about? Other applications that deal with text but are not text editors? Notice also that I said “if you’re trying […]”. I said that because I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I do see the connection you’re making to setting the position of the blinking cursor in a line of text, and my point still stands, that selection is done with the LMB, and that’s more important.
I don’t care if you think I’m making a mountain out of a mole-hill, this issue continually bugs me and I’m going to stand on my soap box and yell about this because I want to. If you don’t want to be bothered with it, then don’t listen.
>>> If you don’t want to be bothered with it, then don’t listen.
Ouch. You’re too loud.
Btw. you mentioned RMB usage -after- my kind reply.
>>> ooo, good argument. I’ll have to see if I can use that one on Ton to make the widget off by default.
And I very much like the widget to be on by default. And I’ve already said ‘No, thank you’.
tedi, you’re just not paying attention, dude. I already said that I think the widget should default to on: “But I’m glad it defaults to on, and that we can turn it off”. It’s the same situation with LMB vs RMB, the user can set it however he or she likes, but I’m arguing about what the default should be. I’m saying that when a person opens blender for the very first time, the LMB should do the selecting. My comment about arguing for the widget to default to off was only an example. Your argument that you’ve been using the RMB for years and you want to keep it that way is irrelevant. I’m not saying we should take that option away from you. I’ve been using the LMB since 2.33, when I started using Blender.
I’m starting to think you guys are just yanking my chain. But no matter, here’s another quote of myself:
“I’ve been using the LMB since 2.33, when I started using Blender.”
Wavez,
I think I understand what you are aiming at, as far as the use of the lmb for selection of edge/face/vert in other programs versus blender’s use of lmb. I myself have tried other software that you have listed, like wings 3d. I noticed that the lmb there highlights/selects the face, then to make an action, one must use rmb to open a menu list and then lmb the action required. I think this is very common with the others, correct? The only difference in my ability to understand the two interfaces was that i had to relearn any shortcut keys that might exist to keep from having to open the rmb menus. I noticed this in a trial of XSI, I think. A friend of mine has the 3ds stuff, and I’ve seen those as well on his monitor when he was doing stuff. I suppose that the blender hotkeys that open window specific menus avoid all that, because I don’t have to look up a menu every action I want. I did notice that the rmb in blender really only seems to select to activate, but the lmb can be used to drag or pull or click points in a curve, whatever.
I tried changing my interface to lmb as select, and that was a little confusing - guess I’d get used to it after awhile, but I think that the only benefit to changing this to default would be to make it easier on a modeler from another software. Each software I learn uses different rules to navigate, size, edit, etc., and I just try to learn it. First time I tried Illustrator and Photoshop, and even Gimp, I was stuck not being able to do anything until I read some tutorials and tried by method and madness to get somewhere.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that the differences in software UI and tool names / methods are going to keep people from taking it on right away anyway - there is such a thing as common sense, but it is so difficult to measure in terms that two people can equally understand. Try to get things changed - it won’t hurt. I just wonder how many actual users would really understand the whole blender scheme just from being able to select with lmb instead of rmb.
I appreciate your passion for this, and who knows, you may be the one who sees what others don’t. As a beginner, I thought you could use my perspective. Craigo
I support wavez on this. It is difficult for the newbie. It was something that gave me headaches in trying to complete the Gus tutorial. A newbie will press the LMB out of habit and the 3D cursor moves, then transformations don’t work as expected, making for a long learning process. Sure there are ways to put the cursor back precisely where it was, but the newbie hasn’t learned that yet.
I also agree that moving the 3D cursor is not an action that is called for often, so it shouldn’t be assigned to the primary mouse input.
On the other hand we still use the QWERTY keyboard even though it was designed to be inefficient! Standards are not always correct, but personally I don’t see the advantage of RMB selection and moving the 3D cursor with LMB.
Craigo