macOS is deprecating openGL

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(Stefan Werner) #199

I think 30% is very optimistic. Moving from OpenGL to Vulkan or Metal will only speed up things when CPU driver overhead is a significant bottleneck. In my experience with DCC applications, that is rarely the case. Typically, scene graph evaluation is what restricts the refresh rate, as DDC applications don’t (and can’t) use the speed optimized data structures that games use.

[edit: I have not looked at Eevee much, so it could be that my assumptions don’t apply there.]


(numen22) #200

A sign of things to come: Autodesk discontinues VRED and Alias for Mac…

According to a note posted on Autodesk’s support website, while older Alias versions can run on High Sierra or earlier, “no versions of VRED will run on that operating system (Mojave) due to the OpenGL deprecation.”

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/alias-products/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Discontinuation-of-Mac-Support-for-Autodesk-Alias-and-VRED.html


#201

Apple think they can always win and force everyone to move towards their direction but that is actually a sign that is not happening. Let’s see what other companies have to say. I moved to Windows a month ago for this very reason. Maybe in the future when things get solved I will move back to OSX again.


(Dimitris Chloupis) #202

On the other hand Cinema 4D that relies on mac users, cause its very popular on MacOS, I suspect because the UI is one of the best for 3d app which matters a lot to mac users, not only has Metal support but it was quick to jump on Metal 2 support too

So it comes down to what your “customers” want. Unreal for example released a small fraction of games on macos the big whale is iOS so they could not afford not to support Metal 2 either, although their support extends to other APIs (Direct3d, OpenGL, Vulkan etc)

I suspect this is one of the reasons why Autodesk killed Softimage which was may popular on Mac platform. In any cases the vast majority of the mac apps/games have ported to Metal 2 so Autodesk is the rare exception and not the rule.

How Apple can force people to move to Metal ? They cannot even stop you from making an OpenGL port on MacOS on top of Metal or just separate as it exists now. They did not stop Steam from making MoltenVK (Vulkan on top of Metal).

MacOS has a very comprehensive set of tools and libraries that helps developers make software like this, including drivers.

Problem is people think because Apple maintain these projects that somehow is impossible to have them other way. That’s not true, NVIDIA release themselves CUDA runtimes on MacOS. Many vendors release tons of libraries on MacOS. Harware manufacturers make their own drivers for MacOS (like my MOTU sound card). Apple is by no means responsible for the existence of OpenGL or anything else on Mac and cannot stop anyone from making a new OpenGL implementation.

Another example is Python, it comes included with MacOS with native support for ObjC libraries but non the less the Python foundation maintains its own mac version as well. If Python was to be abandoned by Apple tomorrow , it would not affect it’s future on mac at all.

So the question here is why none cares about maintaining OpenGL on MacOS and not whether Apple forces you to move to Metal. Afterall we already have Vulkan on MacOS and is a very recent technology. Maybe just maybe people dont care about OpenGL as much as some raging devs on forumes and blog posts will have us believe ?


(Stefan Werner) #203

As far as I can tell, Maxon only talks about Metal 2 for ProRender, but the rest of Cinema 4D still runs on OpenGL as before. Adding support for Metal 2 does not imply removing OpenGL as a requirement.

Also, SoftImage never had a Mac version.


#204

Well there you can see Autodesk is not updating VRED for the new OSX release. Are you sure everyone else is going to do so? Substance haven’t supported Tessellation on Mac for some apparent and weird thing going on with OpenGL not entirely sure why. Do you? Is substance going to upgrade to Metal and support Tessellation in the future? Neither Marmoset supports it. When I say to force developers I mean to say developers to expend more into creating for different platforms. I understand Metal could be better not 100% savvy on this but the question… How long would it take for most important softwares to adjust. I also use Nvidia on OSX which make things even worse as is not natively supported. So I got my reasons why I have moved to Windows even tho I’ve been using OSX for 15 years. I love it but is now getting in the way. As I said I will watch it and move back if I see I can work as well as I am doing now on Windows. I hope I am wrong and things move faster than I thought.


(Dimitris Chloupis) #205

You mean the GUI ? Well if you can port the render engine, the GUI is technically a piece of cake. Currently they do not need to worry about it because OpenGL still runs on MacOS. So the delay may be the delay for inevitable.

About softimage you are correct, I mixed it up because it supported Linux.

Its a matter of money. There a ton of software companies that make software for mac that they do not port to Windows. 3d apps are just a tiny fraction of software made using OpenGL , the vast majority of them are games. Most of them are relying on game engines which are already ported to Metal like Unreal and Unity. 3d apps make a very tiny fraction of mac devs.

No idea what you are talking about, CUDA ? Works fine for me. Unfortunately I have only 1 GB of mem so I never use it even on windows. Driver wise also I had no issues either. Something is neither worse or better because its natively supported , whatever that you think that means. Anyone can make drivers for any GPU on MacOS , obviously because of the complexity of a GPU , none dares so. Apple most likely work very closely with NVIDIA to develop the drivers, so mac drivers are not technically supported by Apple but the actual hardware manufacturers. Apple cannot make things magically better , especially things that are out of its control. GPU drivers are crappy on all OSes, that is a well know fact for devs more than users. Devs usually have to move around those driver bugs no matter the OS, Blender included.

I am using Windows 10 24/7 mainly because I am developing a n extended commercial blender build and I don’t even know if I will support a mac version. I am using a late 2013 27’’ iMac and windows 10 via bootcamp. I am also considering moving away from macos, mainly because I can always install MacOS on a pc if I want to and I may benefity from the extra processing power, plus the fact that I am a permanent Win 10 residence for the near future.


(Stefan Werner) #206

No, not at all.


(Dimitris Chloupis) #207

So basically what you are saying is that you can do physical based render with Metal really fast but you find it hard to do it for simple 2d shapes. Makes zero sense to me. And in any case I am not even sure that the GUI would benefit from Metal anyway, so most likely they will drop to the Apple standard GUI APIs.


(Stefan Werner) #208

If you think it’s that easy, I’ll port Cycles to Metal 2 and have you do the rest of Blender. Win-win situation. Deal?


(Dimitris Chloupis) #209

First of all I am not a company that has just ported its engine to Metal 2 just a bit after Metal 2 was released.

Second of all Blender source code is a mess. Blender has both abstracted away OpenGL and sprinkled it over everything which make it a huge pain to port. Does not mean Cinema 4D has done the same.

I am actually studying the source code for the Blender GUI and even though I have very limited knowledge of OGL I can understand the code mainly because it uses a small fraction of OpenGL features. On the other hand the rendering of the viewport whether its Eevee or workspace its far more advanced stuff.

But no I don think its easy, I don’t know about Metal one tiny things but Vulkan the tutorials I have watched its insanely hard even to render a simple triangle. So let’s say I dont envy the Blender devs that will have to transition to Vulkan.


(burnin) #210

Maxon did nothing of sorts with C4D, they only hindered RadeonPro integration. AMD did Metal version for all Macs.

One of my favorite architects once said:

“If they want a Swine Manor, build them a Swine Manor. But do it by teaching them (clients) to be better: Don’t separate servants from masters! Then all can enjoy it equally.”


(Dimitris Chloupis) #211

Does it really matter who made the Metal version ?

So they used a render engine already available for Metal like 99.9% of developers would do out there. In coding if you can avoid coding for something you avoid it as much as you can.

My point was that they were quick to embrace Metal because a substantial portion of their customers are macos users.


(burnin) #212

They embraced nothing, did no work on it (except optimized it for C4D, thus slowing it down), but simply used it as it came - already made.
That’s a clear difference… which am no longer willing to elaborate further or argue on.

Be good, stay well.


#213

I am talking about having several issues with my 980Ti x2 and some weird Vram problem where the interface of Photoshop or Blender goes black when things get too complex and use lots of memory, Visual artifacts on finder windows, some shaders not showing as they should in Blender… But I am not using an Apple computer so don’t pay too much attention to what I say. It might be my personal problems. Not willing to pay what they ask for a computer, honestly. Another reason why I moved to windows is because Unreal has issues with the mouse when you paint or sculpt where the mouse speeds up towards the sides of the screen, not just me but other people too. They suppose to have fixed it back in the days but the problem still persists. Regarding Nvida and Apple I don’t care how things run internally. Things need to work otherwise I move away. Again, it could be my computer or just because Nvidia has problems with Apple computers. I tried many times to get the attention from other Blender users on Mac regarding a few issues but it seems there are not that many or they didn’t see or care about the posts. Someone had the same shader problem on a real mac than myself which was not present on another iMac I have that runs on an ATI card.


(cekuhnen) #214

First company to ditch macOS


(apoclypse) #215

You guys are acting like Autodesk is dropping Maya support or something. They are dropping support for two applications that probably have a minuscule market on MacOS anyway. Since this is Autodesk, you know the company that’s been releasing filler for 3DSMax for more than a decade, and killed Softimage XSI, is dropping support of macOS for software. So what?

When they drop support for Maya then it will be news.


(cekuhnen) #216

That’s true - alias is a software I use a lot - better than Rhino but you might be quite right about the user count vs Maya.

Alias also has a pretty out dated UI so I can see that maybeunlike Maya das goes with graphic standards or fusion360 which is brand new for macOS and windows


(Stefan Werner) #217

Radeon ProRender for Blender also uses Metal 2 on macOS. By that measure, Blender is on the same level on the OpenGL->Metal transition as Cinema4D is.


(BeerBaron) #218

A big argument for using OpenGL is having it be the abstraction over multiple platforms. A lot of applications, especially in the design area, have been written in that mindset. Some (arguably outdated) features are only available through OpenGL (and professional hardware like Quadro/FirePro).

You’re giving the example of Unity/Unreal, but those are game engines which have to have platform abstraction layers, because there’s no standard API for consoles. A huge amount of work goes into those abstraction layers and it’s also a strong selling point for using an engine.

On the other hand, if a 3D design application was newly written today, I don’t think the obvious choice would be to use an abstraction layer (or Vulkan). The choice may well be to just use D3D11 or D3D12 and stick to Windows, which is a proven stable platform with the largest market share.