Mesh Edting in Blender 2.5

I may be overreacting but I am a little dumb founded by the current mesh edit system inside the alphas of Blender 2.5, or lake there of.

Now I say this with the up most gratitude for the development team but from what I can tell the current logic behind implementing a new mesh edit system is to use the same old mesh edit system as in blender 2.49 (Keyboard Shortcuts Mostly). Maybe it’s because the development team hasn’t started on the new mesh edit system but I must say that I am a little worried about the future of mesh editing in blender if a system that conforms to the blender 2.5 logic is not implemented. Granted the old system is fine for some people and should stay implemented however I’m looking forward to a new system that is more focused on procedural based modeling, dose not use keyboard shortcuts, and has a high level of complexity to allow for a powerful level of editing.

From what I understand every tool in blender 2.5 is now an Operator. These operators are applied rather then executed changing the model to archive the desired effect. From my stand point it makes sense that the new mesh edit system would be much like it’s code base in form. The user would apply operators form a list of operators onto the stack of the model they are working on, thus changing the model. This would allow the user to change the parameters of the operator before it is applied, allowing for a procedural, non keyboard based, system for editing models that is easy to use but is also vary powerful.

Am I just over reacting or is this not happening in blender 2.5?

It’s all WIP, but from what I’ve personally seen, the operator thing is working.
if you hit “t” you have a bunch of tools, that you don’t need to use the keyboard for it you don’t feel like it.
There’s a “last operator” section in the panel, which displays the last used operation…You can edit it even after you use the tool.
I’m not sure if these operators are kept in a sort of history or stack of operators as you mentioned, but it seems like it’s certainly possible. That would be pretty amazing if they were.

If you want parametric stuff, I’d say check out pyTopmod, or Google Sketchup.

JohnnyThunder, Do you mean full modifier-stack pased pylogon editing, like 3d Studio Max?

I don’t think that is going to occur in 2.5. (but it would be awesome).

Imagine not having an edit mode… Instead edit mode is a object modifier. It would be great. After seeing some Max video tutorials, I totally see the awesomeness in that approach.

It is one… approach, but personally I hate navigating through the huge pile of menus to be able to find one simple thing. Plus the modifier stack operates on primitives no matter how complex it gets. That means that you are forced to make a complex object out of many smaller objects which is no where near optimal when it comes to creating a mesh ready for animating.

Maybe I’m not seeing something … but I really don’t see the problem with the current system other than the need for n-gons.

I agree partially. Not working with shortcuts? Nogo! Anyways you only need one shortcut for mesh creation? Spacebar (or Shift+A at the moment in 2.5 builds).

Not having parametric base objects is indeed slowing down the workflow like hell. I’m glad there is the last operator now, which makes it easier to change the object after it has been created. But unfortunately this isn’t permantently parametric.

So yes, I would love to see parametric base meshes in Blender!

I’m not much of a modeler so I’m sticking my neck out here but I don’t like the sound of a non or relegated shortcut system in favour of menus and buttons. The T menu doesn’t inspire me just like the state of N menu for that matter.

Last operator, useful if that means repeat last command but again a shortcut key would surfice unless last operator equates to history stack, which I’ve never bothered with using in any app that has one.

Menus are slow and plodding imo, ‘Heads Up’ system aka 3D Max and no doubt other apps are ignored I think by experienced modelers who know how to approach a model and just do it clean and simple with shortcut keys.

I like the idea of speed, simplicity and thinking a head about how one is going to model something and do it in a simple subD way, efficient, light and quick. Not fanny around with tweaking parameters here and there and altering parametricly what one has already added to the model because not enough thought was given to approach or enough experience on how to handle a modeling task. But then it depends also on what is being modeled.

So personally I’d like to see more power in existing tools, simple things like more control over loop cutting, more control over custom transform orientations and many more before adding further layers of complexity with a parametric system.

But all developments are welcomed of coarse to make blender stronger and better.

double post

dose not use keyboard shortcuts
That feature request is so stupid it borders on being offensive.

Use something else if you don’t like shortcuts.

Yes, you’re over reacting =). First of all, blender 2,5 uses the same edit mesh system as 2,4x nothing has change there. The introduction Operators in 2.5 makes it possible to assign a tool to a hotkey, button, menu, via python or whatever. You could add button for every single tool if you want to, thanks to the new customizable UI. It’s also now possible to change the last operator, so if you extrude a face 1 units you can simply change that to 2 units afterwards. A full parametric modeling system has advantages but also a lot of cons, for example modeling complex organic shapes. Imho it’s better to achieve kind of parameterization through good modifiers

If you don’t like using shortcuts then don’t, then don’t use it.

If you don’t like the way blender works, then don’t use it, it’s really quite simple.

Bringing in a procedural modeling approach is a good idea, but everything else isn’t, max is a flawed legacy application that is both slow and tedious to work with, so please, stop with all these “Lets make blender into a free version of max”. If you love max so much, use it.

I model a lot with 3ds Max and find that navigating sub menus is easier then learning keyboard shortcuts. Considering the vast amount of applications I use day to day it’s a vary good idea to learn to walk before you run with any application.

Yes that’s a good idea lets act hostile and tell users not to use “our” application because it’s only made for people like “us” and everyone else can go to hell…

…Granted maybe you misunderstand me, I simple mean that it’s a good idea if blender allows for more then one way to do things. In this case I mean that there should be an alternate way to model a 3d mesh, one that dose not rely on keyboard shortcuts, instead it uses window navigation to handle modeling. This would be included with the old way of modeling in blender allowing the user to pick their own way of modeling. It’s something I like about blender 2.5, it’s about personal choice.

In personal I totally disagree. When I started with Blender, I was amazed! I never learned shortcuts quicker than with Blender. No program ever made me work so productive. Because you have to learn the shortcuts (otherwise it’s to slow - maybe that’s just how I feel because I want the best workflow speed) you become so fast in what you do.

Blenders shortcuts are awesome in my opinion. And they are absolutely easy to learn. Many of them are so intuitive S, G, R, Shift+S for Snap, Strg+F for face special menu, etc. … It is so unbelievably easy to learn in my opinion. I was totally stunned about how fast I learned the shortcuts. I needed the menus maybe for two or three days.

Yes that’s a good idea lets act hostile and tell users not to use “our” application because it’s only made for people like “us” and everyone else can go to hell…

…Granted maybe you misunderstand me, I simple mean that it’s a good idea if blender allows for more then one way to do things.
No, I didn’t misunderstand you. You simply didn’t explain it properly.

however I’m looking forward to a new system that is more focused on procedural based modeling, dose not use keyboard shortcuts, and has a high level of complexity to allow for a powerful level of editing.
As far as I’m concerned that can only be read one way.

And yes, I’m a little hostile towards people suggesting things that radically change the program I’ve been using for the last eight years. Deal with it.

Well, that’s already possible in blender 2.5 thanks to the new layout system, just need to configure it the way you want it.

I’m very biased toward polygon modelling as I work in video games mostly…

Anything procedural based? I try and avoid it like the plague! that’s what I don’t like in max or maya… it promises so much yet delivers so little…

I’m sure at some point this (procedural apprach) will be a good workflow, but in practice the whole idea of going back to an early operation and changing the parameters and seeing everything that follows update sounds like a producers dream… making change management easy! sadly though, the reality is very different. It rarely allows you to make the changes you need… extrusions and "cutting in " edge loops etc can work in a system like this but the result of changing the subdivisions on the base cube will almost always lead to crap (as an example)
the history or stack of modifiers becomes less and less usefull, hogs memory and performance and ultimately makes the program sluggish and un-weildy

This is why most of my coleageues turn off history or collapse the stack often…this is the reality and rapidly becomes a large inconvenience when using maya for example…

Polygon and subdivision modellers are one thing, brush based sculpting another…
and “procedural” modelling yet another again. I’d welcome it in blender as long as it didn’t change the “good stuff” that makes blender really nice at poly and subdiv modelling… Maya is a great program but really crap for modelling in (for what i do I hasten to add)

Maybe Blender would “do it right”… but I’d wager not anytime soon!

After reading your post i agree, i don’t know how much good a procedural/ history stack would be, your right it doesn’t work in other packages.

However, i think for things like texture painting and sculpting, having that list procedural base approach, for example you could paint a base texture (it would store the value of that colour), then you paint some detail on top and find out that the base colour isn’t quite right, so you simply go back and change it… I know what your going to say, LAYERS! But currently blender doesn’t have those, so that idea for texturing would be kind of pointless, but not so for sculpting, having the option to keep actions and removes others would mean you could layer your model and, at a later time if you found a certain action that you didn’t like, for exampel adding some brush detail to your model, you could simply go back and remove them, instead of having to smooth and resculpt, it would be even better if you had a list (in the style of the material/ vertex group lists) in which you could group certain actions, i.e. grouping a number of seperate strokes into one undo and finally, naming of those groups, so if you had a limit of 64 undos in blender, and you did 32 brush strokes, adding in little cuts into a model for example, you could group those into an undo called “cuts” and it would free up 31 undo actions, also the possibility to safe these with a file would be nice, but i’m guessing it would take up alot of memory… although perhaps storing the operator/action instead of a mesh and acting upon that operator/ action when you reloaded the file and clicked re-do/ undo etc etc…

Also the ability to create macros from that list… i’ll shut up now :rolleyes:

Anyway, not sure how practical that is, but i’d like to have that ability.

Ha ha Daniel, Layers! LOL! you read my mind…

For sculpting, even specialist packages like z-brush and mudbox are a bit clunky with how they handle these (tying them to specific sub-div levels and limiting edits subsequently), but they are helpful (and can be genuinely “non-destructive”…

That said, even for 2d i find myself “flattening” the image way more these days…(I once did a course with Donald Seegmuller… the best advice he ever gave was “if you’re good enough to paint it once you’re good enough to paint it again”…

If you embrace that it makes you loose, care free … and fast!

Well, I think you’re heading for a different direction than I am. Using Cinema 4D as an example, procedural objects (base meshes) and of course the NURBS (Lathe, Sweep, Loft and so on) work just fine and it’s great being able to change the NURBS. Procedural base meshes are also great for starting the modeling process + you can change the resolution of your mesh (as long as it is still procedural and doesn’t need to be converted for more complex modeling) at any time. That’s what I like a lot about Cinema 4D (and I truly don’t like much of it :P).

Of course, if we’re talking about highly complex modeling, parametric objects are no “use” or at least there is not much improvement in this section but especially for beginners Blender is just a torture if it’s about modeling. At the beginning I was totally freaking out not being able to change the base mesh I’ve just created. If you’re settings aren’t ok (which happens often as long as you’re no pro) you have to go back, create a new one, and so on …

That’s what really bothered me when I started with Blender. Of course now that we have the last operator tool this problem is finally gone. But I still think procedurals would be a good idea. They work just like a charm in C4D and I guess that’s one of the reasons why C4D is so popular for newcomers. Because it’s friendly to new users. That’s what Blender should be, too.

well, as Ton said, 2.5 is just to set the foundation for bigger things…

As for the shortcuts problem, i love hotkeys, yeah, it’s hard at first, but in time you become faster.