Read this please

The discussion is also important…

Have someone here expiriences in initiating petition?

I completely agree with Groklaw and while the advantage of “opening” up some MS formats seems real it’s in fact misleading and plays to MS advantage as Groklaw explained.
They don’t “really” want to help Blender, they want to help Windows.
If they really wanted to help the open and free source there were many other things they could do, like helping open office and freeing their formats… well balmer said it all “I would not touch that with a barge pole”.

Agree, my nickname in the discussion is PavelSiska, I am against it too!!!

Somehow I think a whoooole lot of people have the same opinion, or a similar opinion to your own on this matter paya.

I’m very against it as well.

Good one.

The thing about Blender’s file format is it’s a binary format. I always prefer ascii formats wherever possible because despite the open nature of the Blender code, the format is still largely inaccessible for interoperability with other apps. You have to go through Python, which doesn’t have access to everything inside Blender. For features inaccessible via Python (say the new particles stuff), this makes the Blender file no better than a .doc file.

The open source community don’t seem to acknowledge feasibility. If code is open, no matter how difficult it is to do something with it, it’s better than closed source. Although the Blender code is open, to access parts of the file format that you cannot via Python is largely infeasible.

Maya ascii by comparison is completely open and widely implemented in various applications. Simply by looking at a Maya Ascii file, I was able to write a camera tracking exporter so that Blender output could be used with Shake and AE. I didn’t even use a Maya Ascii spec document.

Ascii is not an easy solution though because ascii files are slower to save and open as well as use up more file size. Not to mention it would take a long time for a coder to go through and recreate the hierarchy of a Blender state in an established format.

If Microsoft want to offer their development resources to do it then fine but it seems like they just want to earn some brownie points by seeming to do the right thing.

XML at least would be one of the worst formats to use for storing a 3D scene state. It’s far too verbose and it’s not supported in 3D apps currently. It would have to be a format that allows forwards/backwards compatibility too.

It’s something I’d like to see happen though - I know that to encourage the open source community to take on that responsibility would use up resources unnecessarily but if Microsoft offered a team to do it then it can only have benefits. I think they’d need to be contacted more in depth about what they were proposing to offer.

But fortunately Blender is open source, and you can add the missing API to Python if needed… :spin:

Look, it is feasible again.


to osxrules: In some points you are right in others not…
They do it with hidden goal we cannot see (actually can)…
Their strategy is to spread Windows all over the world, ok I can understand it but they do it way that destroy all other competitors and not that they are better than the rest (I think under shiny Vista is quite nothing new and on my opinion and what I have heard is Windows Vista one of the worst backward edition of Windows) they do it like this way… dirty business, hidden goals, say something and doing something else, install it everywhere, in schools, home edition, professional edition, ultimate edition, business edition - the same st all the time, updates which doesn’t help you, working with windows is my worst OS expirience ever, really!!! WE don’t need them, they want something, their goal is not to make us all blender users happy, to make our living in windows better, no!!! The open- source community is in the eyes of Microsoft the lowest form of life, the are going to fk with us!!!

Bottom line: Microsoft is being their normal selves, trying to get their fingers into WAY to many pies.

Stick to making an OS, MS. Stop messing with other peoples business.

Just look at the Yahoo deal. They went all the way up to $5 billion to take them over before they finally backed down. And I’m willing to bet there will be a fair bit of retaliation from that on Microsoft’s part.

This may require some thinking. I’m sure a new plan of attack by MS couldn’t be as simple as “let’s try to get them on-board”; there must be more to it; it must have followed a lot of behind the doors brainstorming. Let’s try to put ourselves in their perspective. There must be a plan A: Assuming the victims accept the deal; and a plan B: Assuming they don’t.
Plan B is the scarier one, IMO. Perhaps they are planning MORE proprietary formats or file-systems, and then any victims that said NO to A get cut off, and the fact that they said NO would be filed away to present at courts should there be some more anti-trust action in the future, so they could say “we offered to share with them (this or that) but they didn’t take our sincere, magnanimous and philantropic offer”, type of thing…

Heck, for all we know this could simply be a ploy, in the expectation that every FOSS group will say NO before they even hear the question, just to have rejection letters to present at court cases.

I’m not really sure what file format support they think they can offer. I don’t know of any file formats relevant to Blender that MS has any control over or substantial involvement in.

Aside from the free licenses that Ton asked for, I think the best thing Blender could ask Microsoft for is a person to contact for help if there are OpenGL problems/incompatibilities on Windows (particularly Vista). So, say if some aspect of OpenGL that Blender needs is incorrectly or incompletely implemented on Windows, we could ask them to fix it.

No, STOP making an OS and stick to making Visual Studio :smiley:

What I read from the email quote is that MS is looking to make all user experiences better. Through that, they seem to be targeting applications that interact with Windows/MS-controlled file formats.

The only thing I can think of, here, might be the Windows Media formats. A lot of the responses (including my own, elsewhere) seem to be jumping the gun. From that quote, MS is only asking, “What do you need to make your user’s experience in Windows better?” Not, “How can we help you re-code your application so we can ultimately lock you in on our platform?” Or, “Can we interest you in a MS-Shared-Source license (read as: “candy-coated poison apple”) that will help screw over your Linux/Mac users?”

Now, this isn’t to say, “let our guard down.” No, we should be vigilant as ever, especially now that the Eye of Sauron has set its gaze upon us. MS is notorious for totally gunking things up when it meddles in the affairs of others, and I have no doubt that something similar will/would happen if we start letting them “help” with Blender.

But, I do think there is a serious amount of overreaction going on - which always happens whenever someone says “Microsoft” and “Open Source” in the same sentence. Just be careful to remember what the question at hand is: file formats.

What concerns me is that Ton didn’t post the entire email, and immediately made a reference to asking for free copies of dev studio. Why would he ask that if MS was only asking about file formats? He only posted a snippet. I want to know what the rest of the email contained.

that is the problem with the Open source community, as soon as the Hardware or software Manufacturers start working with them, there is immediately a bunch of people pulling theory’s out of their ass of what they are actually trying to do.

How dose any intelligent person read “What do you need to make your user’s experience in Windows better?”

and get" OMG! they are going to Kill Linux, and lock all open source to their platform! then they will Kill open source all together, and make us all part of the borg!"

A valid point. But look at what Microsoft has done in the past with things they’ve ‘helped’ in. It hasn’t been exactly helpful.

Agreed. Seems like an ill-thought response, to say the least. Mind you, I’m very paranoid about Microsoft, and I’m certain they’re not doing this out of good will. But if we make sure that they do things for us, and never the other way around (edit: and, of course, make sure there is nothing important for which we become dependent on them), I find it difficult to see how they could twist this to hurt Blender.

My best guess as to what’s going on is a combination of:

  1. They have no competing products with Blender, so it’s in their best interests for it to run well on Windows anyway.
  2. The whole EU antitrust thing that’s still on-going (if they do nice things for FOSS, they’ll look less predatory).

I suppose it’s also possible that they want to get Blender to add support for Windows Media formats (windows only, of course), but I really don’t see the benefit of rendering directly to compressed formats anyway, so I doubt that would have any actual negative impacts on Blender or FOSS. Most people put their videos in more widely supported formats anyway (like avi divx/xvid).

Also very true…but going from zero to sixty in half a second doesn’t help our cause, either. Jumping to rash conclusions does more harm than good.

Yeah. MS is an evil entity. They’ve proven that, over and over. But at the same time, if they’re willing to open up some of their otherwise proprietary garbage to the (F)OSS community, it might be worth a look. …so long as looking doesn’t kill us.

Their “shared source” licenses, from the limited exposure I’ve had to them, seem to imply all of the goodness of a bound-and-gagged GPL v3, but with the concrete galoshes of “windows only.” It’s just not worth using them. But people will. Sadly, people will.


Exactly what I’m thinking :slight_smile:

Microsoft’s it’s like Satan. Says that wants to help, then ruins.

Never trust Microsoft.

I would’ve preferred if Microsoft just stuck with supporting XP and focused on making the new OS just like XP, but better.

Instead they had to over indulge on eyecandy and make the new OS 40 gigs in size:spin:

This gets bandied around a lot… Check out the “other software” subforum to see how many switch to Linux because of Compiz and are then disapointed that it doesn’t share the gl nnicely with Blender (or other 3d apps)

Bottom line on that is people like the eye candy, it’s an easy sell.

The DRM and “big brother” stuff is a more likely candidate for the bloat of size/eating of resources with vista, and should be the real reason people look at Linux.

With any big company, especially one with market dominance there will always be those extremely paranoid about motives. I used to work at EA and they always get negative criticism.

Never-the-less there are many people in key positions at EA who are genuinely concerned with making great and innovative games rather than screwing over the competition.

I can speak to that because I have first hand knowledege…

I don’t have first hand knowledge of Microsoft but hope that the same must be true there. Just because people work there doesn’t make them robots. It is just possible that somneone is being genuine somewhere and that we shouldn’t over react.

Then why don’t those people leave EA and create their own rival publishing and game development studio?

I’m sure they can create great games without EA telling them to rush a game to meet a release date (like SimCity Societies)