i can under stand you point, but i htink you have to agree that this violent outrage is in no relationship.
in my opnion you cannot point a finger on somebody when are not clean on your own.
i agree that this cartoon stired up a lot of problems.
unfortunatly the islamic culture comlaining about not being integrated also shows a high degree of rejection to german culture for example.
the whole issue about the headgear is rather unimportant compared to turkish families in berlin who reject their kids to be send to school.
you cannot live in germany in a way you did in your home village.
you cannot be part of a social system when you reject any requirement but only open the hand for money from the government.
i cannot find a job in the USA without speaking english.
selfresponsebility is something i miss in this context.
fortunately we had a martin luther, who broke the power of the church.
not only non moslems think that this step is more than over due in the islamic world.
those who fleed from countries even like turkey only because they were critical thinkers.
It’s very easy for thinking people to get sucked into their own openmindedness.
Personally, having been brought up as a Christian I cannot put myself in the shoes, as much as I’ve tried over the years, of a man born into a religious culture; not capitalist, not freedom charter or human rights, not agrarian, agricultural, feudal or whatever other attribute you wish to substitute. A religious culture, where religion determines which hand is clean and which is not, whom you associate with, when you do what and a littany of other stuff that will take too long to type. But I have tried.
Years and years ago I met a hadji who was the son of a Malay slave in Cape Town, South Africa and we became good friends. That was during Appartheid. One memorable discussion was about slavery and the similar (but dissimilar) histories of the white man (Christianity) in Africa and America. Among other things that have left their mark on my soul was when he said, “my land, I will grant it to you, my animals, they are yours if you need them, my family too, and my house and my body, but my religion I will die for. There is no gift more worthy of Allah (blessed be His name) than to give Him my life, and for Allah (blessed be His name) it would be a blessing to die.”
This is something that western culture cannot bring themselves to understand. Like the Allied forces in WWII, fighting ‘for King and Country’ couldn’t understand kamakazi. For King and Country’s all very well, but, really, these Nipps are just taking it a bit too far.
Morons. Usually they say that you are the loony one when you think everyone in the world seems to be going crazy, but in this case, I am quite sure I am not going mad. checks pulse nope, still sane. I have no problems with a cartoon like this being printed, you should see some of the atrocities they have printed about the Jews and such. As for free speech, we aren’t enforcing it on them, but they are trying to enforce a lack of freedom of speech on us.
I swear we need to start another crusade, and stop with all this moronic equality and racist and religious bs. They can have their freedoms and such in their countries, but if they want to come to mine and take mine away, they can f*** off. No more of this minority crap, the true minority in modern day society is whites. And we are doing it to ourselves by trying to make all the other minorities feel good about themselves. If they don’t feel good about themselves as a culture/ethnicity, that’s their problem. We don’t need to implement laws and such to restrict ourselves so they can feel good. We are the f***ing majority! In school we are taught majority rules, etc… The greater good, etc… But when you grow up and get to politics, you can throw that all out. It becomes all about grabbing votes by making stupid laws that make minorities feel good about themseves. Unrequired I say.
Note: I understand this is a very controversial post, and that it will anger many people. But take a minute to try an understand what I am trying to say, even if it is in a slightly less infalmmatory way.
Note to mods: If you delete this, please pm me a copy.
Everyone who has posted in this forum so far has missed a vital point. The Muslim faith is very respectful of their prominent religious figures. So much so that they do not publish (or indeed create) images of these figures AT ALL. Whenever they mention them in text, the words “blessed be his name” are added. It is one of the highest orders of blasphemy to create images because the images are considered not to do justice to the true likeness of the figures.
Imagine, therefore, the level of blasphemy perceived by creating images like those printed by the Danish media! Not only are images never considered respectful, but these were DELIBERATELY disrespectful. Under our laws it should be classed as libel (which is NOT free speech).
It seems very hard for the dumb bigots who’ve posted in this forum so far to see that their failure to understand other faiths has caused the senseless deaths of thousands. I am a Christian - yet I can understand the nature of the violence. I don’t agree with it on principle but at least I understand it. These people have been insulted on the highest level. To them it’s the same sort of insult as the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbour. It is people who are intolerant of other cultures (like that F*#ckwit JellyWerker) who incite this violence! Perhaps you should all grow up and learn about other people’s cultures and maybe the violence will stop.
After reading the posts in this forum, I feel for the first time in my life, somewhat ashamed of those who share my western culture. Thanks you idiots.
milleniumwarrior, that “libel” wasn’t worth killing and burning now, was it? By the way, libel is slandering a PERSON in print. Slandering some jackass prophet who’s dead and gone and angering their imaginary Allah is not libel in any sense of the word.
Why don’t you just close your mouth and go back to venting on the dog now.
Perhaps you should all grow up and learn about other people’s cultures and maybe the violence will stop.
What a great solution. Where have you been all this time??? They don’t care what we do, the animals over there will keep coming up with ways to serve their imaginary friend Allah that involve killing real people.
Beware of tyranny by the majority. Republic is often better, cause majority rules can lead to Chaos.
The reason why it’s bad to draw or link or republish Mohammed is because it’s consider a lie, the reason why it’s a lie is because no one knew what he look like. It’s like raging war on anyone who draw Jesus so that Jesus can’t be use as a insult, if you allow someone to draw Jesus then allow others to see them as Jesus and be assaulted by others.
You know, they forgot the horns. But yes this is freedom of speech and in my opinion freedom of speech should go much, much further then this.
If they can’t respect the law of land in Dutchland then they shouldn’t be allow freedom or safety. And in my opinion the Dutch is more free then the stinking US, perhaps the dutch should be a beacon toward the rest of Democracy.
As for the middle east response by drawing a cartoon, I welcome it. But I can’t understand why they are targeting the EU and the US, not like the EU or US had anything to do with it.
Swedish newspaper Expressen reports here from the funeral of a 17-year-old Lebanese boy who died during the attack on the Danish consulate in Beirut:
Family and friends were there - as well as many of the rioters who together with Khoudor [the dead boy] attacked the Danish consulate the day before yesterday. None of them want to appear with their last name, since they know that they are wanted by the Lebanese authorities.
‘If the army only had let us burn down the consulate without resistance this would not have had to happen. We wanted to get to the consulate, but the army tried to stop us’ says Tala, only 14 years old.
/…/
Just a few kilometres outside Barja is the village of Saida - with a Palestinian refugee camp, Ain al-Houlwa. At the time of the funeral a rally took place:
‘Every muslim must kill a Dane, a Frenchman or another Westerner’ chanted the crowd." hat tip Expat Swede
Valarking, you are also the type of person I was talking about.
What I’m saying is that, while free speech is lovely, its no excuse for saying things that incite violence.
If there was a bunch of punks with knives and guns standing on a street corner, would you go up to them and call their mothers whores? No. That would result in someone getting angry, and someone getting hurt. Probably you. Similarly, do you approach them and say “that guy over their said you fight like a girl”? You could. Free speech says you could - and this time you’re not the one getting hurt. Would you? Its the same principle.
If you know that publishing images of muslim religious icons will anger them, why do it? Is there a need? I think not. I’m pretty sure the rest of the sane world agrees.
If you know that publishing images of muslim religious icons will anger them, why do it? Is there a need? I think not. I’m pretty sure the rest of the sane world agrees.
To test the boundry of freedom of speech or in this case expression. It doesn’t matter who you call what, violence is not an excuse on what a person think, this is no different then the chinese banning books and killing anyone who doesn’t hand there books over. This is a political expression which the radicals are making a fact. If anything you only support such banned cause you fear the expression that will be put on your belief.
You don’t see Pat Robertson thrown in jail just cause he made a statement that a leader should be assassinate do you ? But I think such drawing should include the president.
If you know that publishing images of muslim religious icons will anger them, why do it? Is there a need? I think not. I’m pretty sure the rest of the sane world agrees.
Because it exposes a dire situation. It exposes what kind of bitter and intolerent hatred these people have for any viewpoint other than their own. They are so much in love with their opinion that they firebomb their enemies for expressing the point of view that points out their intolerance.
They have completely qualified the point made by the original bomb-in-turbin editorial cartoon.
Wake up, these people aren’t out peacefully “respect” their leaders, they’re out to destroy our peace and our freedoms…for whatever that’s worth in modern society.
Really though, no matter what, look at the WHOLE picture here, now whether or not you believe the cartoon is wrong you must respect their religion, But it still doesn’t give them the right to kill ANYONE over it. It’s a bloody damned cartoon! Personally I am a Christian and when I hear a Jesus joke on TV it burns me but do you see me blowing up the TV Station or killing the person who said it? No, I get over it. They should be punished as any other person that blows the sh*t out of a embassy killing innocents or trying to kill police officers. That part of the world’s Muslim extremists are looking for thier 15 seconds of fame, and they are getting by murdering innocent people and getting the BBC, CNN, and MSNBC to take pictures of them and their ‘Fury.’ As one of the posters said before, we say to ourselves ‘Oh, that Religion must be respected so we can just let that go’ when we Can’t! I hate to say it, and if it offends anyone that is your problem, but anyone who murders an innocent person out of anger or some belief stirred up undoubtedly by terrorists, should be no less than shot. And that’s my word.
Dittohead, most Muslims are not radical extremists, most did not burn down embassies, most did not declare death to the Danish and most are not out to destroy our peace and freedom. Most simply took it with sadness as another insult to their culture and beliefs. Unfortunately, the majority of Muslims who are not violently intolerant are not considered newsworthy.
I agree, its a dire situation, a situation of intolerance and a lack of understanding. On both sides. If you have to test the boundaries of free speech, target those who deserve it - the fanatical minority and their leaders. Not icons of a belief shared by those who have done nothing wrong.
Then what you are saying is that this cartoon did alot of good cause basically what it did was weed out the violent ones from the peaceful ones, Sure, I respect “peaceful” Muslims that is if they don’t vote or hold office, but the peaceful Muslims are failing to convince the others not to resort to violence, they are only making there religion look more down on. The only ones that deserve the respects are the ones that called for boycott and everyone supports that.
If they want to prove the artist wrong then do it by not proving them right.
I editted out all the mohammad images from this thread. I’m sorry I had to do this but I just don’t want to take any risk. I think we can discuss this issue without graphical examples anyway.
It’s interesting to find that you would use an analogy of punks with knives and guns when discussing potential muslim reaction to imagery.
Are you saying that muslims are like punks with knives and that everyone outside the middle east should smile, wave and say “howdy”?
I suppose that people working in the Embassies which were torched should have stood at the windows shouting “aww, come on guys, ya need more petrol than that.” ?
I lived in Saudi Arabia for three years and can honestly say that I never found any problem with muslim people. Okay, there are some very bad apples, but then the same can be said for western culture too. I mean, at least muslims never dropped an atomic bomb on anyone.
I live in the UK. I am agnostic at best. Why should I have to bend my society’s freedoms and rights to expression on the grounds that folk several thousands of miles away take offence?
What if the very fact I’m agnostic causes outrage in the muslim, hindu, buddhist, or Christian religions? Should I have to apologise for it? Should I have to pay for it by having my head severed off?
And being in the UK, I am deeply disturbed by the reaction of some British muslims who felt it was a brilliant idea to carry around placards viciously endorsing the murder of infidels and so forth.
What now if some young, impressionable muslim kid in Birmingham decides it’s okay to go kill his teacher for being white and Christian, purely on the grounds that a comic rubbed him and his beliefs the wrong way?
It’s sad is what it is. A truly sad state of human affairs, and sadly it reflects the pure insanity of the human race. Of all of the 27 years I have spent alive on this planet, nothing in my mind has been the root of so much pain and suffering as religious belief. With the exception of money.
There isn’t a single person on this planet who can say WHAT life is all about or what life eventually leads to after death. Only those dearly departed hold the answer, and yet still we fight, murder and carry out attrocities in the name of idols, deities and invisible figures.
You have to admit though, that Muslims are very clever, they bully the west into getting what they want. The more the Muslims burn our flags, the more we give in to them.
But like a Muslim female journalist said on the Doha debates on BBC world on the weekend: The Muslims are upset over this cartoon because it links Mohamed with terrorism, yet when a Muslim beheads a Christian in Iraq they shout Ala ahba, so Muslims themselves are linking Islam with terrorism.
The solution is not to give in to Muslims. Stand your ground. The Muslims come in hard. You stand your ground harder.
If we continue to give to Muslims, the worse things are going to get for us.
BTW Fligh%, I respect your sentiments, but don’t forget the Saudi’s didn’t outlaw slavery until 1962 because Kennedy forced them to. In other words Muslims are no better than us. Actually Fligh%, ever heard of the term “barbary pirates”?
I say we all do as Jesus did and love each other. So a culture takes a stab at you big deal, my God is blasphemed every day in my country (America), but I don’t bomb people or return evil for evil, instead what I should do is love, love as Christ did, people killed Him and yet He still loved them through all the beatings and torture in went through, He was set on making the world a better place, He fed the hungry, healed the sick, loved the unlovable, He made a way for us to live as He did and live in Heaven. That’s what “Chrstianity” is about, not the hatred garbage that we and the world have made it into.
Peace,
Jimmy
BTW Fligh%, I respect your sentiments, but don’t forget the Saudi’s didn’t outlaw slavery until 1962 because Kennedy forced them to. In other words Muslims are no better than us. Actually Fligh%, ever heard of the term “barbary pirates”?
Yeah and black people couldnt be in the same bathroom or bus as white people…No wait…wrong country.
Can’t remember what country forbid that??? Oh well… lala la la 8)
