Off Topic Discussion from: Lightwave 2020 Released

It’s a bit perplexing to see a 200+ post thread about Lightwave 2020. Such obsolete software with such a lack of development certainly does not deserve this much attention. The sooner it dies, the better. Reminds me of the vegetable state Mental Ray was kept in for several years :nauseated_face:

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Sorry disagree with you, the more 3d soft out there, the better, diversity is good for users.

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If blender cut development 5 years ago, i’d still be using it today for its strengths. I rallied behind blender while everyone else was mocking it for what it lacked. Meanwhile I prased it for what it had.

You dont see LW for what it is. Those who appreciate it sees something in it that we dont.

Im no LW user btw, i’ve looked into it and it does not appeal to me, but all respect to those who like it.

There is a super defensive, “fanboy” mentality around certain programs, and i think a lot of that has to do with how we lock them out, as you’re doing right now. This can cause them to get hyper protective to protect something they love.

Imagine how you’d react if everyone around you started bashing Blender, im sure you’d be fairly upset over it.

Every software in use has something of value that other programs lack. Otherwise it’d be completely dead by now. Its important to remember that absolutely everyone has a slightly different workflow, and what programs best suit them will vary substantially from one person to another.

I remember lashing out at Cinema 4D for having all these clunky keybindings (M+S, U+N to name two). I saw no value in it, i hated it with passion. And i had this exact discussion that im having with you now, but from the receiving end. That prompted me to give it a real try, and all though i still concluded that it was not for me, i was still able to see why some may like Cinema. I now respect it for what its capable of.

Lets give all respect to those who enjoy lightwave, and give them a platform to discuss the new features it provides. And us outsiders can lurk around and hopefully learn some.


If Blender was in the same state Lightwave is, I’d join the bashing.

Lightwave IS completely dead by now. You could count people using it in a professional capacity on fingers of your hands.

Lightwave’s problem is that it has almost nothing of value these days, yet it’s still being sold for money. This can trap some people who are either new to the industry and don’t know what to choose, or are given wrong advice, or both. Best case scenario, they will just lose money. Worst case scenario, they will lose time (literally piece of their life) learning something with no future.

You don’t see the side I do, as someone who, when young, dedicated several years of life mastering Mental Ray ray, which was kept alive in exactly the same vegetative state just by the lies of nVidia and Autodesk together. Those countless hours of mastering software heading in a blind alley is something I won’t ever get back. People really underestimate how unfortunate is to waste significant time investment, as your entire life is ultimately just a collection of blocks of time.

You can clearly see by the nature of the Lightwave updates that most of the core staff is gone, so people who actually know enough to turn the software around in any significant way are long gone. So this superficial pretending of actual development almost feels like a scam. Meaning that people who are still working on it are fully aware there is no chance of ever catching up the race in terms of having a software usable and competitive in the third decade of 21st century, yet they are still trying to milk last bits of money from what’s left of it, at the expense of users who can simply fall into this trap.

I’d compare this to being a real estate agent, trying to sell a piece of land to a family, whom are explicitly seeking a very quiet place to settle, withholding from them that there will be a highway constructed 20 meters from the edge of the property 2 years down the road.

This is leading back into another rabbit hole, so i wont address most of your concerns individually, as it all boils down to the same point i made earlier.

You, are not personally responsible for other peoples mistakes. You are not one to decide what programs other people are to use, and like.

The fact that Lightwave 2020 is gaining this much attention on a Blender forum is a clear indicator that there is a community for it. And as long as they’re satisfied with the product that Lightwave3D is producing, then all good for them.

Feel free to criticise Lightwave, but just know YOU dont see, what THEY see. Everyone is different. I dont know how much experience you have with lightwave, but even then that too does not make a big difference. Again, comparing it to my view on Cinema4D, which is a program i love as much as you seem to love Lightwave.

But i dont bash Cinema users. I can scoff at it for myself, but thats about as far as i’ll take it.

You come off in a very hostile, and aggressive manner. Which will turn heads against you. The only thing you will achieve with it, is to rally up those who actually like, and care about lightwave. There is nothing productive with what you’re doing.

If you want Lightwave to die, then dont engage in threads that are entirely dedicated to Lightwave. You can express your concerns if someone for instance recommends Lightwave to new users, i too would likely raise an eyebrow in such a scenario. But here, you’re just attacking them at their home. Let it be.

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Where exactly, specifically am I attacking Lightwave users? I am attacking the software, and people who are still trying to sell it despite very well knowing it has no future. Probably not even the developers but mainly the marketing people, which there are probably currently more of than the developers themselves.

IMO a bit desperate move to split off the discussion into separate thread. The whole thread was about Lightwave, and so is this. It’s not offtopic in any sense, as this discussion precisely concerns Lightwave. I know you want to keep this forum all flowers and rainbows, but sometimes hard reality is needed.

Lastly I fail to see how I ever claimed I am either responsible for other people’s mistake, or that I am deciding what programs should others use. By pointing out I am worried about people making wrong decisions I am not automatically taking over responsibility for them. That would be equivalent of being responsible for people dying of suicide as soon as I raise concern about suicide rates.

Similarly, just pointing out, albeit harshly, that certain piece of software has no future does not automatically translating into ordering people to/pressuring them into stopping using it.

That’s some remarkably slippery slope logic right there.

I engaged in a thread that is entirely dedicated to Lightwave by a post about Lightwave. I really don’t see the problem here.

I think it was good to split it off.

And this "and people who are still trying to sell it despite very well knowing it has no future. "
That´s just speculations…even if it may be close to the truth…it can not be know for sure.

There are quite a few studios still investing in it and believing in it…game studios for cinematic and others for some movies.

I never suggested you attacked the users specifically. If you are referring to:

Then that was perhaps a bit poorly worded. I intended to say I dont bash Cinema, at Cinema users. Which in a way is stll attacking the cinema community, but perhaps not attacking the users themselves.

I do find it off topic, yet still related to the same subject. You’re strictly mocking Lightwave, without giving any functional arguments other than “its dead and dont receive any updates”. If you want me to go deeper on this paragraph then i will gladly do so, but i dont want to deviate too far.

Just to give an example, quoting myself.

I used to hate Cinema, and i still kinda do. But i give specific examples as to why i dont like it. Clunky keybinds, which are subjective. And i also didnt like how hidden everything was from the interface. Everything required so many clicks, which to me is a problem.

All you seem to have a problem with, is the size of the community, and the frequency and quality of updates. And im assuming, the price tag that comes along with it.

You seem to miss the fact that users still like it.
Again to quote myself, if blender had not received any updates for the last 5 years, i’d still be using it today. And blender back then, was yank, it was underdeveloped, it had a ton of half completed features, and was not at all respected in the professional industry. So the fact that i would still prefer that over something else, shows that Blender back then, provided me with something other programs didnt.

The same can apply for Lightwave. Those whom DOES use it, use it for a reason. You’re attacking them at their home, which is absolutely the wrong way of doing it!

I never said you clamed to. I just said that you’re not responsible for it.
As you have a very vigilante mindset.

This is beyond speculation at this point. For the software to remain competitive in this day and age, it would require significant core architecture changes, which would require significant amount of staff Newtek’s Lightwave division no longer has, nor does it have funding to ever acquire such workforce. So all the new features are built for the ancient architecture, and would be from significant part impossible to simply port over to a new one if that ever happened.

I’d really love to be proven wrong there. If you send me at least one example of a studio which invests in even as little as continuing using Lightwave in next few years, let alone switching to it, I’d be extremely surprised, if such an example was not older than a year or two. I’d qualify any group of 3 or more people who use Lightwave produced 3D art as majority to make money as a valid example.

Side note, another reason i split the discussion, was that i anticipated that this would go on for a while, and i dont want to clutter the main thread. Here we allow ourselves a lot more freedom of expression.


And then even again, in the very same post even, here:

It seems as if you perceive it as attack on those remaining users. That’s not the case at all. In fact I feel empathy as I was in a similar place, investing part of my life into a tool which became obsolete. Just investing into a tool which becomes obsolete alone is not a reason for frustration, but if the part of that investment was due to intentional misinformation about the future of that software, that is.

I would not drag C4D into it, as that is rather poor analogy, because C4D development remains reasonable active.

My original post was quite honest. I am indeed perplexed and confused LW still has so much attention, given how poor the price/value or learning time/value propositions are. And I would indeed be happy if it died so that people can’t fall into this trap anymore.

I do get your point that some people still use it, and that shows there still are some reasons to use it. No problems with that at all. There are many people still using Softimage/XSI these days. What I have problem with is that some of those people are still being milked for more money.

I reacted to why should it die…felt a bit unrespectful …even if not targeted to a person…

I hope for it to someday catch up…and I have a lot invested in it, which would take so many more years to catch up if I were to do it all in blender.

it´s just that currently I can not invest and upgrade…which doesn´t mean others won´t and it doesn´t mean that I am excluding it from the future either, even though it doesn´t look promising-
The comments are not helpful really.

And to meet up to you around the perplexion, I am just as perplexed as you…but around why you are perplexed? Are you now following newtek forums?

There are most likely more users there who isn´t going over to blender, even if a lot of them does.
The perplexed response from you…I can not see that as being anything else than you are very much colored from your own perspective, and not reading in what others might still think for it.

That said with all respect for that I can understand you may have had your history with it.

People perceive it as an attack on them when you go off in the way you do. It does feel like an attack on the community itself, i’d feel the same way if someone lashed out against blender in the same way. Especially back when it was as under rated as it was back then.

Now i’d feel a lot more comfortable if blender was attacked, as it has finally gained some recognition.

The smaller a community is, the more fragile it is, and the more protective they can be. Im sure most of them are aware of the issues that you’re pointing out, but they still like it and use it for reasons that are beyond your scope. And we as outsiders should respect that.

This again amplifies the arguments i’ve been making in regards to your lack of understanding for the community. I speak very much from experience here, as someone whos stood up for countless minorities on this forum when they get attacked, even if i in most cases agree with the attacker. UPBGE, to name one, whos being constantly compared to unity and unreal.

What if i said, i fundamentally agree with you, i just completely disagree your approach. Everything you’re saying can be phrased in a far lighter, and more constructive manner, that will yield a more “i understand, but…” response, instead of the hostile backlash that so very often come from replies like this.

This sums up my point flawlessly.

Quite ironic that you bring up argument of standing up in defense of attacked minorities on these forums yet I am the one who ended up being called a vigilante :slight_smile:

Anyway, I won’t contribute to the discussion much more because our arguments will probably never meet. You seem to be more interested in the semantics and politics of these arguments, while I am more interested in the hard substance of the matter, with little regard to everything else.

This has been kind of general theme of this forum since it has been migrated to discourse platform. The mood of the discussions is now a priority over how interesting it is.

A Vigilante is not necessarily a positive, or “hero-like” term. It just means someone who takes matters into their own hands, for better or worse.

And here, i completely agree with you. And the reason is we try to stop things before they get out of control. Remember we have years of experience moderating the forum, we know when things are about to completely blow up and get out of control. It is so, SO much easier to deal with it early, rather than wait for the explosion, then scramble to clean up the mess afterwards.

Among the moderation team, i think im the most “lets give this another chance” mod. Closing, suppressing, or otherwise silencing a thread is my very last line of defence. I want people to express themselves, and have productive discussions, but certain topics has to be kept on rails, otherwise it will turn sour very, very fast.

I’ll come back to this in a couple hours, i have to go to work very soon. I want to conclude this, and hopefully send you back to the original thread with the goal of engaging with a more passive, and constructive mindset. Such that you can express your opinions without upsetting the rest.

I was a Lightwave user 20 years ago. At the time a crap load of studios had LW seats, so it made some sense. After a few years with it I came to see it was a huge community of people who had to deal with a whole laundry list of strange work arounds and tricks to get anything decent. The reason it was in those studios back then was that the rendering engine, could produce some half decent results in a relatively short time if you knew what to do. The modelling was enjoyable, but nothing as amazing as a hardcore LW user would have one believe. Today nostalgia is the only redeeming feature of LW, and is hasn’t benefited from the last 20 years at all. It’s shocking they’re still trying to wring money out of it. When I became a 3DS Max user (R2) it was actually refreshing compared to LW, and Max was packed with major bugs. I became a Cinema 4D person years down the road, and now use Blender for all my work at home and Cinema 4D at my most recent full-time job. I agree with you.

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Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena California.

Just writing a string of words is not a proof. I’d like to see a proof of someone actively investing resources into keeping using Lightwave, or switching to it.

You can do your own research as well, you havent really “proven” any of your claims either.

Blender used in the industry:

3DS Max used in the industry:

Lightwave used in the industry

Read the graphs carefully as they’re not intuitive. It shows “Number of companies(Y Axses)” using Said program, with X Axses number of employees.

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