Phoenix FD 3.0

Hi,

Just wanted to point out Phoenix FD 3.0. Would love for Blender fluid solver to reach this level or maybe we can petition Chaos Group to make a version for Blender.

Looking really cool!
I really hope Mantaflow will make it into master for 2.8.
One thing that is shows very nicely in this product, and is hardly available in Blender are good presets. Wouldnt it be cool if you had several fluid/smoke/fire presets to choose from instead of having to do everything from scratch. (i’m not talking about quick effects…)

Presets aren’t the issue here. Blender’s multisolver (even if Manta is included) is leagues away from just about every commercial solution in terms of speed and quality. Our sim tools are by far our weakest link in the pipeline. This isn’t going to change without some serious, dedicated development time. And I can almost guarantee that no commercial entity is going to develop and release their fluid/multi-physics tool, because there’s really no market for it. Most Blender users still bristle at the thought of dropping $15 in the Blender Market. These sim packages usually go for prices in the hundreds or thousands of dollars.

Most of this simply isn’t true. Yes, the Blender Community doesn’t like to pay for things. But there is a small subset of Blender users who use the software for professional work and would actually pay in the thousands of dollars for these tools (myself included). I don’t want to spend the money or the time to use another software package to achieve these effects, and there’s the whole pipeline integration issue Blender has. That’s due to the fact that no one seems to care enough about real pipeline integration for Blender. It’s sad.

Our sim tools aren’t “weak”. Yes they are slow, but that’s due to low use of multi-threading throughout the code. That’s a relatively simple fix, and by simple I mean, there is one specific goal. Make Blender’s sims and modifiers use multi-threaded processing. There will never be a market for these tools unless a market is “created”… You can’t create a market unless you develop the tools the market would want to buy in the first place.

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Find a few hundred users and studios willing to commit to buying thousands of dollars worth of licenses each and get with one of these developers, then. This is not a “if you build it, they will come” scenario. Software and middleware development is a very budget-intensive field, with very thin margins in many cases. No one is going to want to be the first person who spends hundreds or thousands of man hours developing a production-ready tool on the off chance that the Blender community suddenly decides that paying for things is alright. Asking for the community to make a massive leap from begrudgingly paying a few dozen bucks for Market addons to supporting tens of thousands of dollars of ongoing development for a third party isn’t going to happen overnight, if ever.

Also, saying that our sim tools aren’t weak, and then exactly explaining one of the many ways in which they are isn’t a very good argument. Our physics simulation tools are, across the board, some combination of slow, unstable, outdated, and unusable in production. We are easily between a half-decade and a full decade behind in our simulation solutions. All of the multi-threading in the world (which is not even close to a simple procedure, especially with Blender’s ugly physics code base) isn’t going to change that. The Blender Foundation is well aware of this, and is actively researching what it will take to phase out all of the existing hodge-podge code and replace it with a unified multiphysics system. But with Lukas Tonne reportedly leaving Blender development, it’s likely going to be back to square one again.

Alembic will help here, a lot (just sim elsewhere and import if you want to render with Cycles), but this isn’t a Blender issue that’s going to be solved any time soon.

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Blender development aside. I think that what blaize suggested is a great idea. We as community could try to do some research on some sim effects and create presets from it.
Showing some initiative is a good thing, it does show that we actually care for an improvement. Any idea how we could collaborate on presets?

Strong FX tools are now standard in every action oriented vfx shot. I would personally pay the asking price of PFD 3.0 if made for Blender.

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I have dreamed of a FumeFX plugin for Blender for years now but I am pretty sure that the GPL license doesn’t allow for it easily.

There’s gotta be a strong market already for plugin developers to take the time to adapt their plugins to a new platform. Blender won’t ever get a strong market unless some really big developer steps up and make some great plugins for it. It’s a repeating cycle.

Kickstarter for a specific electable feature?

I dont know for the sea example,

But for the explosions/fire one could make explosion / smoke collection, no coding required.

one might check this out btw http://www.dual.sphysics.org/index.php/sphysics-project/
apparently runs with blender

Well, all plugins promise good simulation speed, but after that promises you need hours to make something good, like in blender. The problem for me in blender is that we don’t have foam, controls of the water,… but the time it’s not a problem.

Also the VFX is a really little part of the 3D world. It’s the part that you touch when you are a nooby, but in few times you need this tools.

Dual SPHysics looks great. Looks like it generates foam too. Does appear to be missing the ability to generate a wet map for the textures, but still a big step in the right direction.

While VFX is generally a small part of the 3D world, it is a very important leading part of it. While more CG Animation than VFX, take a look at this Blur reel, lots of particles, smoke, fire effects to drive story telling for cg animation.

But it’s a little part of the 3d, few people make this and this people normally uses especiffic software for the solutions. Houdini, realflow,… and a lot of times it’s make directly in the post-pro.

Doesn’t really matter how big or small, there are people who want it and are willing to pay a few hundred for it. These plugin makers are doing well for themselves.

What has to do with what I was saying?

I might have mistaken, but I thought you were advocating that VFX is a small industry so we shouldn’t consider it.

No, I have told that it’s not a big problem that blender don’t have a full last generation solution of VFX because it’s a small part of 3d world and the vast mayority of users have specific software for this and big suites don’t have a native solution for these things. And a lot of new users thing that it’s fundamental, when you stay in the industry you see that simulations is something really strange and specific.

I gotcha now. Thanks for clarifying.

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