Republicans and Democrats must convert now


(Al_Capone) #1

Pentagon’s “Total Information Awareness” database
is step toward police state, Libertarians say

WASHINGTON, DC – A massive public surveillance system under
development by the Pentagon - called “Total Information Awareness” -
could help lay the framework for a police state in America and should
be halted immediately, Libertarians say.

“This is Big Brother on steroids,” said George Getz, Libertarian Party
communications director. “The government of a free country shouldn’t
want surveillance powers like these. And the fact that the government
wants them is proof that it shouldn’t have them.”

The goal of the program, funded by the Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency (DARPA), is to construct a “virtual, centralized,
grand database” containing every Americans’ electronic transactions,
such as credit card purchases, bank and medical records, travel data,
e-mails and phone calls. That information is to be linked with
biometric data such as face recognition technology and digital
fingerprints, and provided instantly to law enforcement to detect
patterns of terrorist activity, the government says.

Spearheading the initiative is former Navy Rear Adm. John Poindexter, a
Reagan administration official who was implicated in the illegal sale
of arms to the Nicaraguan Contras.

As the anti-privacy aspects of the project have become clear, civil
liberties groups and editorial pages around the USA have urged Congress
to torpedo the program.

“This project sends a message that every American should find
repugnant,” Getz said. "Namely, that politicians and bureaucrats view
America as a sea of criminal suspects whose private behavior must be
tracked, catalogued and analyzed, just in case they commit a crime.

"So much for the presumption of innocence and the right to privacy.
Just as in totalitarian states, your rights disappear at the whim of a
shadowy government employee intent on spawning another database.

“Unless this Orwellian project is dismantled, innocent Americans will
suffer under the kind of high-tech, 24-hour surveillance that the Stasi
and the KGB would have envied.”

Like most counterterrorism measures, Total Information Awareness is
based on a myth, Libertarians say - the myth that the only way to
prevent terrorism is to erode Americans’ freedom.

“But there’s already an effective, constitutional way to gather
evidence against any criminal suspect: Go to court and get a warrant,”
Getz said. "Call it Total Constitutional Awareness.

“The fact that terrorists destroyed thousands of lives on September 11
doesn’t give politicians the right to destroy the privacy of millions
of other innocent individuals. It’s time to tell the government: We are
citizens, not criminal suspects. Pull the plug on this un-American spy
scheme.”


(Alltaken) #2

Osama get exactly what he wanted from SEP 11 didn’t he.

i am really glad i do not live in the US right now because SEP 11 created a huge upserge against the rights of citizens.

in some ways the atacks are still happening but not from other countries rather its from THE GOVERNMENT.

kinda funny, kinda tradgic, kinda silly, but totaly rediculus.

i think the US is playing a stupid chess game
(but the player(George) is stupid so its expected really)

the needs of the few outweigh the rights of the many!!!


(Enzoblue) #3

Makes me ashamed to be an american.

I’m not a paranoid type. If they want to look at everything I do, go ahead and let them, they’ll be bored out of their skulls in no time.

BUT, the people that do get looked at will be the ones that stick their heads up - the ones that try to make a difference. These are the people that will suffer. The visionaries, the ones that say no, the dream makers.

The ones that, unlike me, try to put their words into action.

Our only recourse to this is to remain as anonymous as possible and that’s so truly horrible for any society.


(IMProvisar) #4

Anyone just waking up to these kind of infringements… welcome aboard.

You know, I just recently heard of a bill (don’t know if it was proposed or already passed) which included some portions about e-mail. Essentially, it authorized any goverment official to contact an ISP and request someone’s email if they suspect any trouble. First off, I don’t think it requires ISP’s to hand over the e-mail without a warrant, but as it was explained, almost any ISP would bend over and give it out if asked, especially if they cited the new law.

This covers any goverment employee, at any level, federal, state, and local. This means your old high school math teacher can go to your ISP and request your e-mail, just by claiming they suspect you’re up to no good…

I’d love to get the money together to start an ISP with a policy of no cooperation without a valid search warrant… any partners?

Imp


(Timothy) #5

hah libertarians should keep their silly opinions for themselves


(Al_Capone) #6

If it ain’t serious I probaly will, if the people can’t control the government, then the world should fear this, if you know what those daisy cutters and bunckle busters can do, you’re be afraid too.


(acasto) #7

I wonder if they could use any help building it 8)

But seriously, the world will evolve to something like this. We’ve know it for years. Everyone is just scared because the movies we used to watch as entertainment, are starting to become reality.


(Al_Capone) #8

This isn’t the xfiles, its tyrrany that scares me the most


(Alltaken) #9

movie = GATACA

very true as when i die the world shall be like that.


(Dani) #10

Good luck! 8)


(acasto) #11

You create your own panic. In a situation as dynamic as the world today. You can extrapulate any thing you want to see from it. Depending on how you look, it could be many things. You see tyranny, however what about those who would die to live here? What about those who did die so that we could live here?

Just like the people who are searching for world peace, there will always be something that you don’t like. For one, the world can not even come close to peace without a strict guided infrastructure and someone to enforce the rules. However you would then deem that tyrannical, so we could then give people absolute freedoms. Then they would be free to cause trouble because the systems that was being developed to ‘watch’ them was not built. So you see, the cycle would just keep building and repeating upon itself.

Perfection is an ideal. In the real world, ideals do not work!


(IMProvisar) #12

The problem I have with all these measures is that it’s the lazy man’s fix. Rather than protecting our rights (4th amendment rights in this conversation) and doing the tough job they should be doing, they’re sweeping them away, and watching everyone, making everyone a subject.

It’s much easier to build computers that watch everyone’s actions, as if everyone were a suspect, than it is to have talented individuals find those trying to do harm and seeking valid search warrants to gather the evidence needed to put them away.

The big problem is the beurocracy. A field agent in Phoenix thought something was suspicious about a few certain somebodies taking flying lessons, but his boss didn’t want to rock the boat, so nothing was done. I say cut the crap first, it’d likely be more effective than cutting our rights.

So… what happens next?

DARPA has a project underway that, if implemented, could keep a record of everyone’s electronic transactions. This includes all of their credit card purchases, all e-mails, all phone calls, etc. These files would also include all types of identification stats… biometrics such as fingerprints, height, weight, a picture, and medical records. Not only that, but Virgin (which I understand is the largest cellular provider in the UK) just recently announced that they have a record of every call placed by all their customers which includes WHERE the customer was when they placed the call. Take it a step farther, and they can keep a record of everywhere you go, all the time, so long as you take your cellphone.

The Superbowl 2-3 years ago in Tampa, the cameras scanned everyone’s faces, to check if they were anyone the government was looking for.

Soon we’re going to carry even more wireless electronics. As PDA’s get more powerful and cheaper, we could be carrying the equivalent of the PCs we’re using now sewn into our shirt pockets or ball caps. An interview I heard recently discussed proposed devices that included essentially webcams and microphones, all of which could be used to track us, what we’re doing, who we meet with, and what we say.

We may not have 1984 by 2004, but at this rate, it’s not too far off.

The truly sad part is, most of these laws really only affect those who aren’t doing anything wrong. You may catch a few of the dumbest criminals (who would get caught anyhow), but any terrorist with an IQ above 50 would use some type of encryption or code. Could be as simple as “We need to get groceries tomorrow afternoon.” to mean, “We need to get the bomb parts next Thursday”, and no computer’s going to pick that up.

Imp


(fullback) #13

That is so very true. I once read that “Intelligence” (the quotation is to make liberals happy :stuck_out_tongue: ) picked up a correspondence between Atta and the conspirators which outlined the stated date for the WTC attack (Monday morning quarterbacking here) as a “cake with one leg” (9) and “two sticks” (11). Have fun trying to figure that shit out.

The big problem is the beurocracy. A field agent in Phoenix thought something was suspicious about a few certain somebodies taking flying lessons, but his boss didn’t want to rock the boat, so nothing was done. I say cut the crap first, it’d likely be more effective than cutting our rights.

No, the big problem is the legal system. The FBI didn’t think they could gain access to Moussaoui’s computer by outlining the evidence they had at the time. They knew some Clinton appointed judge would block it and then the press would probably cause the firing of agents who contemplated looking into the matter. Does anybody here really believe that if the 19 hijackers (and their plot) had been exposed prior to 9/11 that anything would have happened? Give me a break, those murderers would have been paid for their “suffering” directly from the US treasury, FBI agents would have been pilloried and lost their jobs, and trial lawyers would have found yet another treasure trove. Plus everybody in the US would be MUCH SAFER!


(acasto) #14

It is not a ‘lazy mans fix’, it is quite smart. What is comes down to, is everyone IS a suspect. If you assume they are not, then people will die. What you suggest is simply not realistic. Unless of course someone can get Miss. Cleo to head up the new department of homeland security. But seroiusly, that’s the whole point of intelligence agencys… to gather intelligence. If we knew who, where, and when the bad guys were and were going to strike, then we wouldn’t need the intelligence agencies. And as we saw in the Clinton administration, crippling the inteligence capabilities is the dumbest thing we could ever do.


(Al_Capone) #15

It is a lazy mans fix, America was created by breaking laws and to make a better Union that they were repress by royalitys, those rights have meaning to guild the people into a never ending battle of complete liberty. one man lawlessness is another mans freedom. If Amercians let government gain complete control then all those men that faught and die was simply in vien, people come here to get away from such government not to come to it. Libery isn’t about complete freedom its about responsable freedom “Do onto others as you will have others do onto yourself” this goes against everyones indivisial of responsable freedom and we the indivisial has let it erode into a Democracy or Society. Such morals only take away the rights of the indivisial. Remember, our forefathers wrote the constitution for a very good reasion, if you look at why the revolution started and the repressors that they had before they come here, you will find it extreamly importent. The comman law is above all others including the FEDS.

As for terrorist, well you looking at them, these terrorist strick for a reasion, if you don’t understand why they hate us then perhaps you should look at our foregin relation, look at all the army and milertary that are foriegn soil, will Americans allow such thing on there homeland ? Absolutily not, thats a threat, an invaision and we know better then to trust a high authority, remember, dictalors and communist alike runs a country by COMPLETE CONTROL. Don’t be so foolish to give up your freedom for the sake of tempority safty.

What about the 1.5 million people that die from American sactions ? You think thats any better then the 9/11 ? No, the number of people of 9/11 is a very small compare to the freedom of billions.


(acasto) #16

Oh well, I don’t have anything to hide. Do you?

Let’s hear your plan then? I bet it won’t be do-able or even realistic. And don’t say it’s the principal of the whole thing, because thats idealistic, and if that’s what your looking for, then you’ll never find it.

You can’t even start to debate someone that has this vision of perfection and absolutely no plan to back it up. So why not lay it out for us. How it would work, how you would implement it, how would you finance it, how you would enforce it, etc… If you think it is so do-able and the government is such a big conspiracy against us, then you must already have the perfect plan laid out. So let us see it.


(theeth) #17

I thought that justice was “innocent until proven guilty”?

Martin


(acasto) #18

But you can still be innocent and be suspect. Just because someone isn’t guilty of something dosn’t mean they’re not up to something. This is the reason there is ‘random’ searches at airports, because anyone could be up to something. Intelligence is actually pretty common sense. Racial profiling is something that really works, but people complain about it being racist. Intelligence is something that helps, but people call it invasion of privacy. If anything, this government ‘spying’ system would sort out a lot of the puzzle so that everyone then wouldn’t have to be suspect. If you have no intelligence, then you have no idea, so must assume all is a threat. But the ability to narrow down the field based on intelligence is not only smart strategically, but helps to keep many from being suspect.

If this system looks for patterns, then most everyday people have nothing to worry about. So then to gather information on you, they would have to target you, tell it to record specifcally your stuff. So then lets say the government does want to come after just you, couldn’t they do that already? This is just another tool to be used by the intelligence angencies. It is not like they can’t find you right now, but as soon as this is on line your going down. If you are of that much interest to them, then they will get you if this system is on or not. But what it will do is make it faster and more organized for them to do the job they are doing right now. From a business and efficiency standpoint… it’s just smart.


(RipSting) #19

I had a dream a few nights ago… I was in the desert with a few of my friends from school. We were dressed in military camoflage. I don’t know why because I’m about the last person who would fight in a war. All of the sudden a supersonic jet flies overhead and I lay flat on the ground and cover my ears because it was so low and loud. After that, about 7 more fly overhead. Just as it ends, we all look to the horizon to see a briliant flash of white… My dream shifted to a third person perspective as a wall of fire engulfed all of us. Scary as #%^!

I’m not doing my homework anymore- the world’s just going to end anyway.


(CubeFan973) #20

Oh, no, what have I done? I started a craze of paranoia with the mostly-jokey “PARANOIA” thread, then people began taking it all too seriously.

Or maybe paranoia is being programmed into our posts. Maybe I’m not writing this. Maybe it’s a couple of government agents tracking me down.

Anyway, I didn’t read the first post, but I’ll guess it’s going right into stuff picked up from “1984.” Maybe there are some cameras already hidden in your house, at least six to a room, one for each side, and everything you’re doing right now is being monitored.

Hi Mom! Oh, wait… Hi, government agents! I know you’re watching me and putting me on my own little TV station! In case I don’t see you, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!

Anyway, the paranoia has become too real for me. I’m becoming increasingly paranoid of those around me. Unfortunately, the technology is getting too advanced, and soon, we’ll be simple little rats in a rat maze. Even those of you who don’t live in the USA will become subjects of experiments. Paranoia branching… paranoia branching…

Has anybody here other than me seen “Cube?” In the words of Rennes, “Look around. Take a good long look-see. 'Cause I’ve got a feeling it’s looking at us.” Part of the film’s central theme may have been “Big Brother isn’t watching you,” but who knows? Maybe there were cameras in the walls. Maybe they were a part of some government conspiracy. Maybe it’s really happening now.

Who knows? Maybe the “Youth Rights” is a part of the conspiracy. Maybe the movies are a part of the conspiracy. Maybe old TV shows are being refilmed to make it look like they’re part of the system. Maybe there’s a system. It controls everything. It’s making me type all of this because I’m part of the bad bytes, and I’m to reveal to you all the truth, only to disappear later, most likely because I’m righ—

CubeFan gets commited to an insane asylum for his paranoid conspiracy theories.