i have Made an arm BONE set. an upper arm with forearm and wrist and some fingers. I rotated the forearm bone around itself as i liked. [with quaternion rotation]
i have key framed several times the forearm bone at different positions(because i wanted to get a specific resault) animating it’s rotation around itself (a local axis).
then i corrected the upper arm[forearm’s parent], and the forearm changed accordingly as it inherit rotation the upper arm’s rotation.
the forearm itself still doing the self twistaround itself as i wanted, but now - in a changed direction i need to correct back.
but when i try to manually correct the forearm back to previous position at each keyframe, it doesnt preserve the self rotation i made before.
i know i can disconnect the bone from it’s parent or make it not inherit rotation. but the self rotation is built upon an inherited rotation already.
i want to adjust the forearm position - - along with the self rotation i made at each keyframe.
Is there a way to preserve self rotation of a bone ?
How can i adjust the position of the forearm without erasing the self rotation i made?
Is there a way to copy my self rotation, erase the key frame, put my arm in place, and then paste (add) to it the self rotation? or…something like that?
…no… i want to twist the hand. that’s all. only that any change in the direction of the hand also changes the twist.
the only moving bone is the forearm. just twisting the forearm in a direction.
i have keyframed the twist. now i want to point twisting forearm to another direction.
but doing so ruin the twist ive done.
like a minigun, like in the doom game or a movie. when you activate the minigun the barreles rotate like a twist. but now i want to move the direction of the minigun to shoot more monsters. the same goes for the arm.
i have recorded keyframed the forearm twisting. now i want to change it’s direction.
the same twist adjusted to point another direction. that’s all.
but when i change it’s position, it doesn’t perserve the twist.
imagine a humen arm. the forward arm (AFTER the elbow - the “forearm”) is twisting.
i made a hand twist.
now i want to adjust it’s GENERAL directon. to point the twisting forearm to a new direction. how?
i want to adjust the forearm without affecting the tiwst .
how do i place the the twisting forearm in a new direction?
if you still didn’t (if you did, then skip this) understand my question - here is a detailed describe of my question:
the FOREARM twists. i placed the hole hand in a starting position of which i liked.
then from that keyframe, i started twisting the FOREARM through several keyframes.
when i was done keyframing the forearm, i noticed the position of the WHOLE arm(upper arm,lower arm, hand, fingers and everything)
therefor, i adjusted the forearm’s parent - the UPPER-ARM (the one bone which connect to the shoulder…im trying to be clear).
by adjusting the UPPER-ARM (FOREARM’s parent) i was satisfied with the UPPER-ARM’s new position. only that the new UPPER-ARM’s recent adjustment changed also the position of the FOREARM accordingly(the FOREARM inherit the UPPER-ARM’s rotation).
here is the problem.
after correcting the FOREARM’s parent (UPPER-ARM bone [the one which connect to the shoulder]) i now want also to correct the FOREARM’s general direction (WITH the already made twisting motion) which has changed as result of the recent UPPER-ARM’s new adjustment.
if i correct the general direction (position/angle) of the FOREARM back , then the twisting movement is ruined or erased.
my FOREARM was in a good direction. the UPPER-ARM was not. the twisting of FOREARM was already made. i changed the UPPERARM’s general direction, this changed the FOREARM’s direction (which was good as it was before i changed the UPPERARM)
so now i need to get the FOREARM back to it’s previous position.
how?
if i do it, it erases the twist.
how do i correct (or just adjust) the general point direction the forearm is facing to, WITH the twist i made. (without making it allover again)?
OK, it’s clear I think. I know the problem you are talking about, but I don’t know the direct solution. A workaround is to disconnect the bone, then the upper and lower arm can rotate seperately, and rotating the lower arm won’t rotate the upper. But keep the parent/child rotation between the upper and lower arms though.
First of all, thank you for dedicating time to answer, write and help. Really…
Now…about what you said:
You still didn’t understand.
As i said imagine like i have a minigun. It is rotating.
Forget about the upper arm and the parent stuff. That nonsense.
Im talking about having a minigun, and wanting to move the minigun. The minigun is rotating ok. Shooting bullets. Now - how do i rotate my minigun down while shooting? I want to shoot monsters below.
It’s not only the arm thing. I want to be able to have a twist sequence(couple of keyframes of the twist motion) and to be able to change the direction of where a twisting bone is pointing to.
with parent or without.
Take a single bone unattached to anytyhing - add a twist sequence (couple of keyframes of the twist motion) and now point this twisting bone to the sky, or the ground, or the side, or whereever you want to point it.
How?
Umm. Thats nice. Thank you.
But the problem still stands like this - i have keyframed my arm twisting (lots of keyframes)
and you, in this “rotation” .blend file didnt use any keyframes.
So not only i dont know how to make a rotation without a keyframe right now like you did(which is irelevant), but also wouldn’t help in this specific situation. because my perfect twist is preserved in the keyframe sequence i made for the arm.
what you did shows you understand what im trying to achieve! but… with keyframes.
Here - if you’ll be kind enough to have a look at what im talking about so much: RE-ROTATION 1.blend (300 KB)
i apologize ahead for the mess in the blend file, it is without names and scattered with some bones. but at it’s center grid is the character im talking- youll see it.
in this blend file the arm is twisting in a keyframe sequence as you can see.
this is BEFORE i corrected the UPPER-ARM.
in this blend file is the same character with the forearm in the place i would like it to be.
the first two keyframes represent the position i want it to be while twisting.
the others - none touched from the previous blend file.
i have cleaned this blend file from everything not related.
the twisting forearm is named “minigun”
I don’t know about the blend, but all I get is a armature with a twitching arm. I think the arm is supposed to be the gun, and you made it rotate and now you want to change its direction. I think you will need to add another bone and parent the rotating bone to it. Then you can have the rotation seperate from the direction your pointing
that’s correct. you understand.
and THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING A FEW HOURS AGO. AND IT will DEFINETLY work. to create another tiny bone.
but it is not what i looked for. isn’t there any straight forward solution to this? it’s kind of silly.
it means ill have to create extra bone to every joint so i will have control over its rotation and direction seperatly because blender can’t do it. i was thinking of a simpler easier way to do this. because it is much more work (if it will actually work) to do this.
i thought there was a simpler way to do this that im not aware of.
and Sorry about before - you did make key frames. I didnt see.
You made an arm of two bones connect. And another third minigun bone. The minigun is not connected.
I understand everything you did.
The minigun you made is like my forearm at my blend file. Twisting. And you directed its pointing with it’s parent.
I would strongly recommend using a parent bone as the pointer and the minigun as the rotor. The only other way is to constantly edit your curves so that the Y-rotation is separate from the X ans Z rotation.
but…the problem was not making it easy to control it in every move. i wanted to do it constantly seperated so the y rotation is seperated from z and x.
the problem was the starting point. if i change the starting point, it doesnt preserver the rotation even if i go to every keyframe and position it manually at a new direction in each and every keyframe. it has a weird effect (FOR SOME REASON I GUESS) and distorts the motion.
but now with the bone it dosen’t have any effect. and i can control a twisting arm’s position without it deforming my twist i made.
you said it makes it easier to control the direction rather than manually adjust each key frame to seperate axises. but here it also solves the deformation in an already keyframed twist.
catch my drift?
TRY ROTATING THE HIGHEST BONE IN IT. A WEIRD EFFECT THAT IT HAS IS AS IF IT IS ANIMATED JUST BY ROTATING IT. TRY ROTATING BACK AND FORTH IN A BRUTAL WAY, AND YOULL SEE A SNAKE-LIKE ANIMATION JUST BY ROTATING.
IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A SPINE. BUT THIS IS JUST EARLY STAGE OF WHAT IM TRYING TO DO.
BUT THE EFFECT IS COOL. YOU DONT NEED TO POSE KEYFRAMES TO GET AN ANIMATION NOW : )
It was a good animation. Now it’s kind of ruined. - EXPERIMENT1.blend (475 KB)
the only part i really recreated is the part when the snake figure surprised/afraid of the camera.
The little animation was formed to an idea through experimenting to a suposed snakelike figure that becaome aware of himself…eating some grass, and then become aware of the camera.
it’s nothing, but i thought it might ammuse you.
Looking at your file RE-ROTATION1.blend, there’s a couple of things that might help you.
First, I’m assuming that you want the forearm to flex at the elbow while also twisting. This defines the action you want, I think.
When rotating bones in an armature it’s most often best to use the Normal axis orientation rather than Global. The bones’ local axes are oriented to this reference frame, so the manipulation gadget will always rotate the bones long their local axes when set this way. This lets you adjust individual axes without affecting the others. Also set the pivot center to Median Point, which for bones is always the joint or, if disconnected, the bone end, where the bone originates. There are times when you may want to use a different pivot center, but Median Point is the most generally useful option.
When setting keyframes, it’s best to include all your axes rotations rather than trying to do them sequentially, for example, first doing the twist and then adding the flex. This is because when you set a keyframe for rotation all your axes get a key, but when you go back to add the flex, you only want a change to one axis. You can do it this way but it’s more awkward than keying the entire move at once. It’s sometimes easier to adjust the F-curves for a single axis than try to keyframe in single-axis changes.
When keyframing, it’s not always necessary to break a motion (like the twist + flex) in to many increments. If you set the start and end position/rotations, including both twist and flex, Blender will supply the “tweens.” So begin by setting the start orientation of your arm, then set the end, run it to see how it’s working, and then make adjustments in the intermediate frames if needed. This usually results in smoother animation that is easier to edit.
yes, what i want is elbow flex and forearm twist.
but it’s ok, the problem was already solved (well kind of. i was hoping for solution built in blender)
i know these things youve said. but im not looking for an easy way. im looking for percision.
your advice is not directed to what i intend. smoothing a motion in character doesnt make it also relaiable. sometimes to achieve your goal, setting start/end keyframe can make it more difficult than do it manually. and i don’t always know the entire motion before i finish a single one.
still. i really thank you for trying to help and advise.
only wish you would have posted sooner
You can build whatever precision you want into an animation sequence, down to a key for every bone for every frame if necessary, but the most efficient process is not “set one key, set the next key, set the next key,” frame by frame in sequence, because then it’s much more difficult to arrive at the end of the sequence exactly where you want to be. By using start and end frame key poses, you then set up a path from start to finish that you can go in and modify as needed, axis by axis, frame by frame, to whatever precision is suitable. This is true of most every kind of keyframed animation. Set the key poses, refine the tweens, tweak the details. It also insures that single-axis adjustments are much less likely to adversely affect the other other axes.
The file you supplied was set up for Global gadget orientation, using the 3D cursor as the pivot point, both conditions which would make the kind of adjustments you seem to be trying to make extremely difficult to achieve. It isn’t Blender that’s the problem, it seems instead to be the way you are trying to use Blender. If you aren’t willing to consider another way, then good luck to you.
i have been thinking on the “child of” chain i made. not only you can shape it to act as a more precise ik constraint as you like, but also, it maintain the base position you pose it in. so basically, you can shape, and give properties how the material will act, before even you animate it. and thus making animation easier than before…and more realistic/reliable.
even though it is not directly relavent to my goal of making a reliable spine bone system, it is something intresting that im positive could help animating also in other situations rather than a humen spine.
look at this blend - EXPERIMENT2.blend (475 KB)
in this exsample blend file, i already shaped the same bones in a somewhat spike shape. by simply adjusting the bones from bottom to top. try moving the head/top of the snake, and youll see how it maintain it’s original GENRAL pose, only to move the accordingly in a reliable motion and bending.like an elastic or hard silcon.
try rotating and youll see.
but i already said the problem was solved. i dont look for less difficult.
the pivot was centered on cursor because that’s how i left it for thread posting. not because thats how i made the keyframes.i AM considering alternative ways for solution, thats why the problem in the thread was solved.
i didn’t quite understand the connection between considering other ways and a goodluck wish but thanks.
good luck to you too and thanks for your advices