Terrorism and war: To not clog the madrid thread.

General Forums Off-topic Chat
21

You’re commiting the same mistake here…

You’re labeling a whole nation as terrorists, while the true terrorists are simply a specific group of fanatic islamists… The rest of them are equally victims as the Israelis are… Those 12-year old children you’re mentioning are caught between Israeli “occupation” and the fanatic teachings of all those extremists… And they indeed are unaware of what they’re carrying and their lives are (for one reason or another…) so f*cked up, that if they survive childhood, they are ready to believe any lie Mr. Bin Ladin and his allikes will tell them…

It is true that there is a major degree of antisemitism on behalf of the majority of Arabs, but from my point of view, it is not only their fault…

They equally have the right, as Israelis do, to live in peace and autonomy, in their own country… And Israel & U.S.A. don’t seem to be very helpful, towards this direction… If you and I were in their position, we would both do the same things…

PS: Hamas is a big part of the “cycle of violence”. They blow up innocent men, women, and children, and then Israel is like, “Hey, don’t do that.” And thus the cycle of violence continues.

And then when the Israelis kill a member of Hamas, or he/she gets killed in a suicide bombing they go further, violating the Geneva convention, by applying collective punishment measures, demolishing their parent’s or relatives houses, who may even be innocent of the terrorist’s actions, further ruining their allready ruined lives… Some times, after that a new Israeli shettler’s house is being built in the place of the Palestinian one… And all this with the “discreet tolerance” on behalf of the majority of the international community and U.S.A…

And thus the “cycle of violence” goes on…

Sometimes I wonder…

Who are the real terrorists…

Those who “carry” the bombs, or those who just close their eyes and ears to human pain and suffering and let all the “Bushes” and “Ladins” and “Sharons” and “Arafats” of the world, to play their game of chess on our backs…

C.U.

[EDIT]

Most probably not immediately, but within a very reasonable period of time, we would eventually have peace at last… I bet my soul on that…

Note that we Greeks are traditionally, enemies with Turkey… We hate them, they hate us… I believe the reason why we haven’t killed eachother to the last, so far, is because the “powerfull” of this world, think that it is not for their best interest to allow us to do so…

Have you considered that there is a possibility that the Arabs and Israelis are simply “allowed” to go on killing eachother, because it suits the purposes of the “powerful” (whoever they might be)???
[/EDIT]

22

there is a slight difference.

the palistians are fighting a war of territory.

if you believe me or not most palistinians would want peace any day and settle for their own territory. so far the offers from the isrealis have involved serious loss of palistinian land/rights.

its the extremists that don’t want isreal.

just as in isreal there are many people who want palistinians all gone!!!
(it is government policy to eventually remove all palistinians from the area that isreal wishes, although this is not reflected by all citizens)

the america/spain issue is “terrorism” in its true sence of the word. it is the stricking of terror within civilian populations to make a political point, it has nothing to do with historical land grievances and such.

i think the two issues are very very different in motives and situations.

Alltaken

23

I see nothing that makes the israelis crap stink any less than the palestinians. I am sick of hearing ‘anti semite’ from the far right. It’s as meaningless as the rants of rush limbaugh, that mouthy guy with the hypocrisy problem.

24

Could you just give a short example for this points each?

Just to make the statement founded and checkable.

25

Just to bring a bit of a different angle to this whole thing:

It is difficult for me to discuss an issue such as this. And I think for many people that do choose to discuss it it is maybe more difficult than they realize.

I live in Canada, in an upper middleclass town in Alberta. People here love to discuss Iraq or Bush or Israel/Palestine etc etc etc. Most of these things do not, however, directly affect us. There are not bombs going off on my block or soldiers operating checkpoints.

Most of our arguments tend to operate from a moral/logical point of view–an examination of what has happened and a judgement on what is happening.

Now get a whole lot of us together, and we all have our own opinions–everything from the right to the left to all of the paradoxical combinations that are real life. We become a force, and we exert our will. We vote and we participate in an economy–which in a way translates up to the elites that govern our country. These elites in turn interact with the other elites of the world.

We all (ok probably most, but almost all) want something. We are all exerting our wills in one way or another. We are all operating off of our philosophy and/or beliefs; basing our decisions on imperfect information.

Inevitably we do something that we can not understand the consequences of. But these consequences do occur and they affect other people.

We are not logical beings that make logical, objective decisions. We are also not passioned creatures that follow whatever appetite is currently the greatest. We’re somewhere inbetween, in that kind of ambiguous area that most of life exists in.

The moral high ground exists in all decisions–which makes judgement on external events difficult because of the real and prevalent danger of self-rightousness. However, the moral relativist point of view (that we cannot judge others because we cannot comprehend their life experience) is inevitably also a moral high ground.

Perhaps what I am saying is to be careful about asserting the right in judgement without trying to experience the validity of others’ attacks on your point of view.

Lastly, as a side note: I feel this is all somehow also connected to the cult of progress. Technological progress is often times mistaken for and consciously misrepresented as human progress. This also provides a moral high ground. Have we made progess in a human way in the last thousand years?? Maybe more importantly: do I see the people of 1600 as primitive??

Just my .02 CDN $

b01c

26

With regard to most of what has been said on the second page: the problem (as I see it and this is just an opinion) is that, as individuals, religion and religious principles are worthy of being practiced but not worth dying for, but as groups they are no longer worth being practiced but are worth dying for.

%<

27

Forgive me for not reading other peoples responds, it’s just that, alltaken, you said the magic words of this stupid war.
You recived the infomation from BBC world - isn’t there a possibility that your information source is already subjective?
Wars are well photographed and brings good rating. Editors will rewrite history if they will nedd that for rating. So once agien I’m forced to say - Don’t be limited to youre own little world - explore, learn, stay open minded and objective, ask, think, THINK for god sake before you do or write or say or what ever! There is much more to every thing than what you can see on youre TV. You can always say it’s all propaganda. Loook at both sides of the coin before judging who is good who is bad - who is to life and who is to death.

one other thing alltaken, I resent the analogy between USoA prisioner camps and the nazi counsentration camps - bare in mind for what perpous were eace created for.

28

Actually as I see it, religion and religious principles should not be considered worthy of being practiced or dying for, neither as individuals nor as groups… Especially when other innocent people are going to be harmed as a result…

But as a matter of fact the problem is not religion… That “war” simply had to be fought…

Religious and nationality differencies are just some very convenient excuses (as usual…) to persuade Israelis and Arabs to go kill each other, so that “we”, the rest of the “civilized” world, will wake up tommorrow and our little insignificant “oil-based” lives, will be the same as they were the day before…

[EDIT]
@ner it is incredibly difficult to live down there and yet remain as calm and objective as you seem to be… If I would be in either the Israelis or Palestinians position, I know for sure that I would definetely choose sides…

I shake your hand for this…

29

did you know that america had concentration camps in World war II that were equal to those of the germans, do you know that the US has concentration camps now, (guantanimo bay etc…)

That is comepletely untrue. Yes there were “concentration camps”, but nothing like what happened in germany. Tsk Tsk, do your research.

Timondies: I did make hte mistake of lumping many people into a group.

If you and I were in their position, we would both do the same things…

I honestly would not strap bombs to 12 year old children. Don’t insult me like that.

30

All is fair, in love or war.

31

Al_Capone: Uh huh %| .

b01c

32

The vietnam war was the same thing, why didn’t anyone call that terroristem ?

33

The same thing as what??

b01c

34

I don’t think terrorist can be seperated from war, yes the victom might be innocent but from what I recall, the history books call this total war and is often a recurrents to war.

35

Then if I love war, I can do anything I want?

Great, I love the logic.

A world without morals is a world without terror.

Great more wonderful logic, this world is gone then. Without morals, the world evaporates.

I can’t even begin to fathom how you came to such a conclusion.

My morals tell me not to kill someone in cold blood, without my morals telling me not to kill someone, I would kill someone. I consider killing someone in cold blood terrorism…so if I gun down an innocent in public, not constrained by morals, am I justified?

That’s weak logic my friend.

36

Point taken.

revision of my indended point

excluding nazi Death camps.
including nazi POW camps (political enemys, etc… not there to kill people although many died in them)

the US had similar camps. they didn’t practise genocide, however their treatment was similar in brutality as the nazi political enemy camps.

Alltaken

37

Not in brutality, yes it was wrong, and it was something that should never have taken place. But saying it had come anywhere near as close as the nazi’s ways of brutalizing prisoners is pointedly foolish.

I cannot deny it took place, I am ashamed. But I have the feeling that you at least implyed a corrolation, or maybe a comparable government, military and feeling among peoples, then and now. I get the feeling that much of the world views me and my country this way.

I have, however yet to see any evidence to support even remote claims that I am a Nazi, or even a bigot as so many believe my nation is.

I would like to, once and for all, ask why me and my nation are so hated by the world?

38

If you score national socialist, then you’re a nazi, would you like to the test to find out ?

39

By the way, like it or not this will be my signature for now on. :slight_smile:

40

The brutality wasn’t the same either though. The only comparison is that we did hoard people of Japanese descent into camps to seperate them from society. For people who don’t know about this, it was done to subvert spying and uprisings. It was wrong. They were given tiny “apartments” that were often horse stalls or small rooms in makeshift housing. Many lost their jobs, houses, and way of life because of it, while their children were fighting as soldiers for the US.

They weren’t starved, abused, or otherwise mistreated though… be more careful with the way you compare genocide with segregation. I’m not trying to justify anything, but geez, what a comparison.