Thoughts on closing the gooseberry thread

*** Moderation ***
Action: I moved this discussion out of the thread Updated Forum Rules
Reasons:

  • It does not belong to the topic of that thread
  • It is a pretty lengthy discussion on it’s own.

Be aware this discussion is pretty old right now. But I need to do some cleaning to the above thread.

Action: Closed
Reason:

  • The discussion ended already
  • There is no need to restart this discussion again

I believe the view is that the thread as it stands naturally ended its course as it now stands. Seeing as I was the one who started the thread I agree with this.

When it’s clear what the actual scope of the project is I’m sure a proper discussion can continue. This doesn’t stop anyone starting a new thread with some specific topic

That’s fine. It just seemed odd/fishy as the thread was still active. I’m new to the boards so maybe thats why it seemed wierd to me.

As much as I enjoy lively debate and drama; Rich is right. The thread was becoming more of a “stomping ground” for those for and against the way Gooseberry went down, among other things unrelated. Although I did like to tune in each day to see what the latest verbiage was, I understand why it was locked.

I would like to express my dislike and concern on the recent anti-Ton lobbying going on inside the forums. Some of the members every other comment lead to some anti-Ton / anti-Blender propaganda.For some reason its always the same people. I do not want to reply to these people not to fuel their anti-campaigning or contaminate the thread.

I would like to suggest that there should be some form of warning from the moderators to these lobbyists. You might have an opinion of some people and not like their way of doing things and you can express that on the appropriate time and subject. But repeating it over and over again doesnt seem like “expressing” its more like propaganda, and I’m weary of these insensitive people. That is why I have put them on ignore list, but of course that doesnt stop them from turning the forums into a tar pit.

This comment is funny, because its far more akin to propaganda than anything anyone has said that relates to questioning the decisions or language used by Ton and or the direction of Blender as a whole.

You see, the key to propaganda (yes I have studied it both in a historical context and that which is tied to the behavioral sciences) is that it relies entirely on appealing to ones sentiment. Propaganda uses emotion or language (word choices) to generate emotion to generate support. It is almost never detailed or objective.

For example, you refer to those who offer criticism as “anti-ton” and “anti-blender”, you could also use “tonphobia and blenderphobia” which we see a lot these days. THAT IS PROPAGANDA. Its not a realistic or objective means to talk on subject, but rather lump a group of people into a category in which you will aptly put a label on, and then use that label to get others to support some need of force to suppress those individuals. I’m sure if you know history you would know how similar that is to certain tragic events seen throughout Europe and Asia.

The very fact you are trying to rally support through words and lables like “lobbying” (which is what you are doing), “anti-”, “contaminate” (Ton used the word, “poison”), and even “insensitive” (emotion based), to demonize anyone you feel deserves that label is not only extremely dishonest, but its hypocritical. What you offer is a very DANGEROUS line of thought.

Ask yourself, in what world does the truth become a punishable offense??

You obviously have studied propaganda.

And once again this thread has turned into yet another gooseberry/anti-Ton flamewar. Can we please just stop doing this? it started to get incredibly annoying several months ago…

There’s no need to spill these debates (once again!) over into this thread. Let it lie.

As long as the questions he makes are public, I think we have right to a public reply as well.

If the reply could be made in a way that doesn’t restate anything that’s already been said, it might be worth starting a new thread. Unfortunately, it’s a near certainty that replies to such a new thread would quickly devolve into the same rotisserie of oft-repeated talking points (on all sides).

IMHO, that particular discussion has run its course (and fluids from its corpse are still leaking into nearby threads). As I said when I closed the thread, let’s wait until there’s updates from the Gooseberry team before re-opening that conversation… and perhaps it can be taken in a more positive direction. For instance, now that the project’s been decided, it’s not really worthwhile or productive to discuss what anyone would rather that the Blender Institute produce. A much more worthwhile discussion would be on the content and process of the production itself (once more of that information has been released).

As a quick for-example, lets say I go into one of the threads in the WIP forum… perhaps for someone working on a model of a detailed and realistic robot. In that hypothetical thread, I make a post in there that says, “This is a horrible idea. I think instead you should make an animation and it should be about a group of lawn furniture discussing the proper plural form for the word ‘mongoose.’ Anything else is worthless.” As a post, that’s not helpful or productive or really useful at all… and I hope that if I make such a post, I would get PMs from members and moderators alike telling me that I’m out of line.

As a project, Gooseberry is decided. It’s effectively in a WIP stage. Let’s treat it that way.

You may write IMHO, but you backed that up by being the one who closed the Gooseberry thread. That is a pretty definitive action. And not humble in my book - at all.

And it was a active thread, were the director of the movie had just made some harsh accusations against some of the threads more active users.

I think the moderators of BA are beginning to balance on a thin line here. Personally I think that there is a rising frustration (or at least more and more raised eyebrows - so to speak) in the Blender community about Gooseberry, and the way forward. And just closing the relevant (active) threads is just not the right thing. Just saw that this related thread was closed today.

But this is just my (humble) opinion.

Guys , the rules must be respected in order to have a peaceful sharing of skills in here. If you want to flame all day , do it on Youtube and Facebook page , yeah. But please guys stop arguing like kids.

Im tired of reading pages of crap , Im here to see art and artists evolve over a lifetime and doing things constructive like helping other artists learn the things. And people become friends and form successful businesses … from simple users who learned together.

How about stop all the rants and such and talk only about ART and USING BLENDER 3D ?!

Keep your spit in your mouth and start modeling something let the ART be the critique!

There is a saying:
If you throw mud at someone, they will look dirty!

I think this applies to Gooseberry and the forum moderators, they are just people trying to keep things together. Just because you disagree with them does not make them wrong.

The thread you linked, the OP was LITERALLY calling for Tons head! You cant have a discussion if that’s the starting point?

Whilst I understand Fweeb’s opinion, I disagree with it and joahua does have a point.

It does seem that Project Gooseberry is getting special treatment with threads being shut down whilst still obeying the forum rules as written. If it was a commercial film project being undertaken by Autodesk and people disagreed with it, would threads about the matter still be shut-down? If the director of this hypothetical project threw down a challenge to those that thought the project had issues - would the moderators shut-down discussion leaving his challenge unanswerable?

In my not-so-humble opinion, such things would be allowed to run their course until clear rule violations occurred, as opposed to personal opinions about when the subject is done. In my opinion of less-than-modest-origins, the forum moderation is becoming overly protective of this project. I recall fears of BA censoring opinion on the project when ton made his post about how he “won’t accept” comments he disliked being posted on the forums. It does appear, at least lately, that his influence over moderation is indeed stifling discussion on the matter.

Um, no, he wasn’t. The OP did no such thing. If you’re going to support a decision, it might be an idea to read who is saying what first :wink:

I don’t know how we can better assuage the concerns that we’re being “overly protective” of Gooseberry, because really we aren’t. If any other large project came to the forums, and ran over many, many pages of endless back-and-forth between just a few users, then we would likely close those down too.

When any thread turns into a series of competing soap-boxes it’s probably time to set them aside. There’s nothing productive about them and they take away from the real, valuable discussions that those projects need.

I think one of the reasons that it appears like we’re giving special treatment, is that there are no other projects on the scale of Gooseberry that are actively discussed on this forum. It’s a bit of a unique enigma.

Well, you could start by allowing people to respond to the challenges laid out by Gooseberry’s director for a start. :wink:

I’m sure you can understand how uneven it appears when the Gooseberry team members are allowed to throw out (what even they admit are) disparaging comments about those they disagree with and throw out a challenge to demonstrate how they are wrong only to then have responses to that cut off.

I openly & honestly do appreciate that my post responding to Matray got added to the thread (as opposed to simply deleted), however, he wasn’t speaking to just me and I can understand how others might feel a little slighted against being prohibited from responding in the same public forum he slighted them. If responding to the challenge & disparaging remarks is not allowed, it seems odd (from a point of fairness) that the disparaging remarks & challenge are allowed to remain public in the first place.

I understand you guys are between a rock & a hard place and don’t envy your position. Simply letting you (& others) know how it looks & feels from an external perspective.

From an outside perspective it looks and feels like a hand full of people are flooding this forum by expressing the same opinions over and over again, complaining that they can’t express their opinions. Simply letting you know, no offence.

Not a problem. In the same vein, I find the same people slamming anyone writing criticisms or concerns about Gooseberry or Blender development in general. Generally they are far more offensive & personal in nature than the criticism they are railing against.

Really!? more Personal!?

Ton has been accused of fraud, embezzlement and being a bad leader. Matray’s skills as a professional have been called “amateurish” and he has been accused of talking “#@$%”. The CG Cookie team have been accused of censorship, being dictators and favoritism. To name just a few of the very personal attacks against the Gooseberry team and developers.

While most of the “opposition” are protected by the anonymity the internet gives you, these people are not.

I would not claim that any comments levied against thous making criticism are more personal when most of the people making the criticisms are not even exposed personally to the discussion.