Tony The Rapper !

are you guys aiming for something like the Andy rig. its a simple androgynous rig that can be made into a girl or a boy with a change in wigs or clothing its made in such a flexible way that it can be easily reused.

something like that could be really useful.

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I would love to get my hands on that psl-Man rig, personally I think it’s an appealing character- but, more importantly, it is simple, which is important for animation studies.
I think it would be fun to make some pantin mods, just by doing some simple color changes and accessorizing. I’ve also been tempted to give him a mouth, but I’m not sure I’m up to modding him that much, I don’t know the inner workings of the deformers well enough.

You’re one of them - this is a community effort so there is no “you guys”. Everyone’s input is welcome!

%<

Waylow forget about the rig…we haven’t modeled anything yet, there is not need to strech anything until we have the MESH! Those shots as I stated are references…no models that we are going to buy as such…WE WILL MAKE OUR DESIGN !

???..no one has said to make people switch from MAYA… that is not what this thread is about Waylow.

Waylow we will start at its time. Be patient, we must have a target design before investing energy. You must have to wait until a decision is made by all of us. Remember that this is a team where every opinion counts.

Why don’t you try to get some good shots or sketches? Try a few more…just a bit more appealing as Tyrant Monkey and NEWJOY posted.

@ Tyrant Monkey

Well in short words that’s a great idea. The character is generic, well stylized looking with curve definition, some personality. It looks a little bit like the ANIMATION MENTOR character, which is simple and have great personality. It would be cool to have a wick for girl and boy…the thing would be the garment…hmmm would it complicate the thing? Would it be too technically sophisticated? What do you think? or may be a t-shirt and a short for both? Just changing the wick?

Jay thanks so much for your input. It really counts as I like to see different points of view. There is something that people are stuck on: When we see a sausage with eyes the perception of your brain makes you conclude that it is simple and easy to animate. When we see a more stylished mesh…your brain tells you that it is too complicate to animate. Well that’s the magic of the ilusion,and it is not necessarily true, plus I can guarantee that there won’t be any extra effort in the animation process, all tasks can be made, and the result of your work will be 100 % more eye catching.

I recommend you to read this book: Character Animation 2D skills for better 3D. If anyone wants it PM me I have the PDF version.

It really teaches many things that we as enthusiasts never discover. Curves in your models, as well as the animation creates the illusion of the movement. Your brain plays an important roll when watching an animation…it is a very complex process that takes place in the cortex.

Pantin is a great rig…but poses disrupt the ilusion due to basic sharp proportions…unless you wanted a robot or a toy in your animation. One example…take a look at Pantin’s hands ( look like a beisball glove)…now think of Pantin with five fingers well designed instead of that beisball glove…using exactly the same controls, the five fingers would create a more pleasant ilusion of grabbing something…you as a beginner can have a better feedback of what is believable and what is not…even if you are creating your first animation ever. So all of that is applicable around all his body shapes…

Humans by nature seek for the easiest path. When you were learning to write you tend to grab the pencil as knife right? If you did not have a teacher you might have never grab the pencil correctly right…Students playing piano…we always wanted to learn with only one hand…two seems to complicated right…well wrong…both hands are a lot easier, sound better and your brain has the power to develop any skill no matter how challenging it is.

Many Sausage-Clay-like characters are developed in that way because it requires less modeling skills and less invested time…no because they are easy to animate.

One could argue though, that for the purposes of the BAC, which this thread is about, having a simple and easy to animate character is perfectly adequate. When you look at a BAC entry it’s not the model that counts so much, but rather the weight, emotion, and timing. Also, for animation purposes, a simple low poly mesh is nicer for real time playback and scrubbing, - hence the use of proxy models in many workflows.
Animaticoide, it seems as though you have a very specific vision for this character, why not make it yourself?

Actually Jay a few more loops and definition on your mesh won’t slow down your system. Texture, Ray tracing, Ambient Occlusion or multi-tire meshes are CPU eaters. Playing back a sausage or a cowboy wont slow down your system.

Also the shots provided were submitted by Tyrant Monkey and NewJOY…so what are you talking about of my own design…?

Anyways I tried to explain you that a better Mesh does not mean a more complicated animation…

well that’s what we all want…and we will…it won’t look like clay though…that’s the only thing you don’t see to understand, a better mesh does not mean complicated and hard to animate…the limitation is in your head…

but I respect your opinion…one day you will understand. Bear in mind that just 5 participants were in BAC last round…a better mesh will eventually help to catch newcomers. More impersonal and clay-look meshes will not help at all either.

New ideas is what we need…not driving in circles towards the same my friend.

Cheers and cool down !

PD: By the way? have you ever participate in any BAC?
If you read the book written by professionals then you would understand what I say.
Character Animation 2D skills for better 3D.

What about this one?
This one does not look like clay and it has a generic look at the same time. May be something like it would satisfy those looking for simplicity…

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@ newjoy I like that one! Really great IMO, generic yet expressive. My only crit is that he looks naked, we would have to work on that.

@Armando thanks man for suggesting that book, I have read 146 pages and just can’t stop! :eek: While I already knew all the basic concepts it covers, I have never found so much knowledge in one place. You have helped me immensely by suggesting such a valuable resource, one that I am sure I will reference for many years to come. Thanks again.

P.S. control your temper, it is the weakest link in your otherwise brilliant mind.:wink:

sorry this is not so apparent currently it seems its mostly the guys that take part in the animation challenges that are clued up on this. The ins and out of what is wanted or needed escapes me.

From reading what animaticode writes if the goal is to increase participation in the animation challenges by providing a new mesh that gets more people to take part, than frankly I am more confused than ever.

@NEWJOY

Hey that one looks like a very good candidate. His look is smooth with enough curves definition and looks generic-expressive as other rigs for studies. Let’s see if we get any objections on your new proposal NEWJOY…I like it.

Thanks

@3Dmentia

Hey I am glad you are reading the book. Yes it is kind of addictive…it explains quite simple many things specially about 3D Designs.:slight_smile:

@ ALL --------------IMPORTANT

Hello to everyone. I need to share with you something that bugs me, and I shouldn’t keep my mouth shot anymore… SORRY

A few Newcomers keep saying that Pantin is a simple rig to animate. Well,I must say that that’s not true.

The easiest to animate rig is the one with less number of controllers with enough architecture and constraints to do the job automatically for you and allowing you to pose it with no limitations.

Pantin was not designed with the NEWCOMER in mind…Pantin as PEDRO were designed to show rigging capabilities , but not to make your life easier as animator.
Pantin has redundant controllers everywhere, and the mesh quality does not even needs such extra bones.

One more factor why the BAC final animations are jerky is on the rig itself. I have never participated again because I have to key too many bones on Pantin to produce a basic POSE !..plus the animation is always jerky when you have to manually handle many bones on the same area, we need to let the IK algorithm work for you…your animation will be smoother and you will produce longer quality animations in less time.


TAKEN FROM THE BOOK:

The thing to bear in mind when designing and building a 3D-animated character is to KEEP IT SIMPLE ! You could come build the most complicated character in the world, but if its very complexity makes it awkward to animate it completely defeats the object of the exercise. Internally, think of your character as being like a racing car. All the controls are cut down to a minimum and are easily accessible. There won’t be any cup holders, electric windows,climate control and the 1001 other gadgets that you might find on a standard roard car. This simplicity will speed up the work flow of your animation and mean that you don’t have to save as many keys on each part of your model. It will also make life a lot easier when it comes to controlling the animation curves of your scene. Less keys, less curves, less wasted time.

Bringing those words to Pantin:

Pantin has:

4 controllers for one simple foot? You move the “rolltoes” and you disrupt the pose !
MY PROPOSAL:It only needs one control with IK and an Action contraint. One to roll toes. Moving one of then does not interfiere with the other one! SIMPLE and efficient!

6 controllers on each hand? And he does not even have fingers?
MY PROPOSAL: One bone to roll 5 fingers that’s it. With the same arm’s bone you pose the angle of the hand…SIMPLE !

3 controller just for the lower LID? Another 4 controllers for the upper lid? I mean individually on each eye?

MY PROPOSAL: Only one bone with driven shapes…that’s it. ONE BONE ONLY

Specially the foot design is not good at all to animate walkcycles…the rooltoes bent the knee?

One more quick example: Pedro has a very short tail…almost hard to see, however it has 3 controllers plus one nurb curve aligning the IK chain?..Come on guys…Just posing that tiny tail you have to waste time and deal with frustration…plus the final pose won’t differ at all as if you were using a unique FK bone!
IT ONLY NEEDS ONE FK BONE, NO MORE ! Now the implementation is good to show rigging capabilities…but no for BAC where many want to learn the basics of animation with not enough free time!

My FINAL PROPOSAL:

The rig we will design has not the purpose to show off our modelling or rigging skills…it will be fully oriented for new to medium animators that want to practice more, create quicker and longer animations with much better results in arcs, plus more visual appealing. But we need a new mesh and a new rig…!

This is not personal against anyone, however bringing the bad points always creates discomfort among fanatics and friends…but this is a strict technical Thread and I hope you understand.There is nothing wrong in being controversial, as long as you are sincere in your beliefs.

Get use to use these keys: G(grab) R (rotate) RR (rotate on own center) and S (scale)…that’s all I would ask you.

you complain than Pantin isn’t an easy rig - but clearly you do not know how to use it
you can control the Hand with 3 bones (there are extra bones for extra control when needed)

You complain that Pantin doesn’t have fingers then you say you want to make a rig that all the fingers are to scaled open and closed and “that is all” - Simple
Then what is the point to having fingers at all if the cannot be individually controlled - it might as well be a mitten like Pantin

You can’t see Pedro’s Tail? It’s Half the Length of his body!!
and yes you are right - there is no point animating his tail because we all know Dogs never move them
or if they do - it is always moved as a stiff ridged object
If his tail is a problem for you - do you know you can turn it off? (in the 2.5 rig)

I think you need to stop contradicting yourself - and direct yourself towards creating something that the community can benefit from

your words do none of this

Stop trying to be “controversial” and create something we can comment on and move forward -

but by rubbing everyone up the wrong way before you even start is a sure fire way to ensure that your work is received poorly.

No more faffing Armando - START the project

Waylow your replied is a natural reaction…So I wont fight you back.

That game about turning off extra controllers definitely probes that the rig was made trying to show rigging capabilities…Extra controllers make the animation tedious and you know that…that’s why they put the option to turn then off…simply because they aren’t needed for a 10 seconds BAC challenge. Plus all newcomers wanting to keep then “ON” will get JERKY animations because those controls aren’t needed at all…They disrupt the ARCS…and much less for that kind of low poly mesh!

Unfortunately when you are new and see so many controllers your reaction is to say: WOW! what a good rig…but it is a false impression…that’s why BAC has only 5 entries…people can’t even finish their animations……people get frustrated…they just don’t say it…go for MANCANDY…or LUDWIG if you really want to practice animation. With a good and easy rig you can make 10 secs animation in no more than 2 hours ! And that’s my PROPOSAL

IK, FK and Constraints are the key…Blender provides many constraints algorithm to be used to make the animation easier,smoother and quicker…well you haven’t used then that much…sorry. Putting controllers every where on the mesh with the option to turn then off is a simply “silly design” not suitable for animation…much less for BAC where everyone has not much free time or not much experience…plus the result is always JERKY

I have participated in BAC THREE times and I won the last one. So I know what I am saying…PANTIN or PEDRO aren’t good for BAC…neither the mesh…nor the RIG. MUCH better is Mancandy in such case. By the way…when mancandy was the rig for BAC there were 42 participants…!

By the way you haven’t submitted even one sketch…What do you think about NEWJOY’s last image?

It seems you just want to fight me back…but you are ignoring others’ members ideas on this thread…What do you think about the last shot by newjoy? or TYRANT MONKEY? Do you have a better sketch to show us? That’s what we need to hear so we can start this project sooner !

Why don’t we just use whatever rig we bloody well like, for the B.A.C.?? I don’t see why there has to be an “authorised” rig in the first place. A lot of other competitions allow participants to use whatever rigs they like, and they haven’t collapsed in a burning heap, AFAIK.

I mean, it’s an ANIMATION contest, right? Alls I’m saying is, let’s concentrate on animating. I’d much prefer to participate in a competition that allowed any rigs, provided they’re Blender rigs, then to’ing and fro’ing about ‘the one true rig’, that’s always just around the corner…

Not that there’s anything wrong with that, if people want to work on a rig, that’s great, go for it, but in the interim, let’s just drop the restriction and have an animating competition.

A good start would be a comprehensive list of rigs that are currently publicly available.

how to start new threart

I would like you to count the number of controls for Mancandy and Pantin and get back to me :wink:

I have made my comments about the designs I like - but you still haven’t started modelling or even sketching your idea

here is a character I am working on for a short
but the character is not finished yet - he is still missing his jacket in this pic but I’ve nearly finished the rigging

Sorry - but I will be releasing this character after I have finished the project
but this might give you some inspiration to start something at least

I won’t be able to finish him in the near future because I am working on another project that will actually benifit the community

  • I am creating about 6 rigs all looking like Pantin for people to practice with (Sorry but appearance is less important than motion you can create)
    The first one is a horse (still under construction - working on his ears atm)
    then a spider, and some other animals etc

The idea is to have a whole series of characters that all MOVE differently to practice ANIMATION - rather than 1 new rig which will be just another biped character

Armando - the purpose of this thread is to create a new rig - not criticise the work of others who have given their time and talent to the community

so create a new rig already

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@fatfinger

Thanks waylow, good work! :slight_smile: