User controlled interior Toon Edge idea

I’ve wanted toon edges on the ‘inside’(not just an outline) ever since I discovered the Edge button. I think the reason we can’t do it now has something to do with the edges being made using the Zbuffer which wouldn’t do much good with the inside(If I understand right, but I’m stupid, so I don’t know). So I think one way to get the inedges would be to make it separately. Here’s a supposed workflow:

Select edges that should always get a toon edge. Have an option in Ctrl-E for ‘mark as inside toon edge’(or whatever it would be called). In the Edge button options, have a button for ‘use marked inside edges’. Maybe have and options for fading, tapering, square or round ends.Turn on outline edges too (to complete the toon look) and render.

That’s all good and all, but how do you go about implementing inedges? I don’t know(I’m stupid, remember?). Maybe use an blank template(?) that takes whatever color you picked and draws however-many-pixels-wide-the-outline-is edge perpendicular from vertex end to end on the marked edges(like tracing).

Maybe a python script could work( take edge data that already exists[like seam or somethin] and do above junk with that).

Is this just more annoying ‘Blender is perfect, except this that I can’t do anything about myself, so I write about it’ blabber, or any parts worth thinking about?

Or why not have toon as an option in the materials so that you can make some stuff toon and not others, and it would detect the z-buffer of each individual object (so there would always be a line around the edge of each object). Then the amount of difference in z-buffer can be set to determine how easily there is a line inserted (like in the current structure).

MicWit

I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing(though I may be wrong). I want to be able to have a toon edge anywhere, not just the outline. Places like the crease around the mouth, forehead, seams of clothes, or even the four edges of a face, drawing a circle. You could draw(using edge topology), say, a face using toonedges and have plain materials for an easy toon look, with edges that match the outline(that you can’t do with textures and have it match the outline edge)

The problem, if i’m understanding what you mean, has to do with how the program decides where an edge is supposed to be. Outlines are easy (tho a colorizing option would be nice), but inside edges would be somewhat hard. If you use the actual wires from the model you would probably end up with an overly-complex mesh that would make it more difficult to animate, and it still wouldn’t really look that great compared to normal 2d line drawings. Textures would be easier, but i know it has it’s own limitations and drawbacks. Lately i’ve been dabbling about with some 2D-style rendering and the best option i have come up with is to just do away with the oulines alltogether. 2D animations never use single color outlines anyway, so maybe a way to set an outline color for each material, and then use multiple materials on the character? would be hard still for some things, but for many areas i think it would help for the outlining.

But like i said, having played around with a number of options i still think cel-shading looks a lot better without the outlines. I probably didn’t help in the slightest, but I’ve found myself with the same type of problems and i can’t help but think there’s a better way to achieve the effect than what’s currently out there… and don’t even get me started on the shading problems :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT: Wait a sec, are you talking about the problem where the toon edge will look just as thick no matter how far from the camera it is? I can see where actually drawing toon edges onto the model might be useful there, as opposed to using a texture…

Another issue with the outlines in blender is… if i make a character and give it outline, and then put that character on the ground (or even floating just above it), the outline gets thinner by his feet until it’s no longer outlined at all. I assume this is because the feet are so close to the ground that Blender is deciding that it doesn’t need an outline? And just for clarity’s sake, i haven’t even tried the Outline mode for a couple versions, so all that may have been changed already. :stuck_out_tongue:

I have been asking if there is a chance that the toon outlines will be improved since I got here. Unfortunatly I think the people who do the upgrades think that not enough blender users care about toon style graphics to spend the time on it.

If you had a seperate tab with the shaders tab in materials, just for toon, and you could tick what you want to “toon”, for example, seams, all edges, or lines marked on a seperate uv map (custom), or outside edges (as it is now). Some of these options ould also have sliders to say how much they impact the toon effect.

MicWit

That’s my biggest problem exactly. I can’t have the outline always match the inside using textures…

Another issue with the outlines in blender is… if i make a character and give it outline, and then put that character on the ground (or even floating just above it), the outline gets thinner by his feet until it’s no longer outlined at all. I assume this is because the feet are so close to the ground that Blender is deciding that it doesn’t need an outline?
I agree that that’s a pain.

That sounds like an ideal solution for all of this. So would the Edge button be moved there as well, and you turn on/off all edged objects independently?

I remember seeing in this forum(I believe) years ago how someone used opengl to get really good(in my opinion) toon edges, but it was only in 3d view, not for rendering, and just a hack for fun so it never materialized into usefulness(if I remember right). I think I’ll look up some resources to maybe get a ball rolling(and saying and doing are, well, you know). Here’s a page full of NPR links that I’ve found way back when. http://www.red3d.com/cwr/npr/ Maybe some thoughts, answers, and ideas can spawn into (digital)tangibility:D

Please do a search there was a thread about this exact subject not long ago.

Indeed, you’re right(there’s even a reference to the same npr link as mine!)(you would make a wonderful hall monitor:p). However, that threads come and gone without any result, and if I just wanted to read about other people wanting the same thing I(we) do, then I would be content. But I want to do something about it, or at least keep bringing up the conversation until something can solidify. Do you have any thoughts, as many heads can be better than fewer…

I’m going to try to write a python script and see if my poor programming ability can make something. Less talk, more…coding.

No, that would stay there as well, as that is to put the effect on the entire scene, the others will be set up on each material.

MicWit