Is someone who can write a design document a programmer or an artist?
The gap that is being bridged by those people is likely larger than you think. The work they are doing is usually not trivial and can’t magically be removed.
Actually they can be removed, maybe that’s what some of you guys fear. Logic bricks are very easy to understand and use, make them a bit more powerful and programmers would not be needed. I actually find it surprsing that there is no engine except maybe the rpg maker programs that have implemented a “brick” for about every feature one would ever need in most games. How about adding some more logic bricks:
Improved camera brick:
Makes the camera detect colissions, makes it so the camera only track the rotation or location of the character if certain conditions are met. Perhaps only make the camera track the rotation of the character if it’s standing still or if it runs out of camera view? Makes it possible for something to be parented to the camera without losing it’s physics? Make it possible for an animated camera to be controlled by pressing a key, push forward the camera animation is animated forward push back and the camera animation is animated backwards, or have the animation only move if other conditions are met. Thinking specfically of 2.5D side scroller games or Final Fantasy 10.
Letter brick:
Makes it possible to display messages on the screen, letter by letter or it could just fade in or appear. The messages are read from a text file.
Saving and loading brick:
Makes it easy to save and load the game by clicking on top of some geometry on the screen.
These new bricks combined with what we already got would remove python. Most people would have no need for programmers anymore. You would see more quality games being made in blender, most people don’t need complex features, they want the basics and a few more logic bricks would provide all the basics needed to create the most popular genres of games.
You answered by yourself:
In the case of programmers we’re talking about gameplay mechanics, how a character moves around on the screen is not something programmers have achieved some mastery of. You’re right that you wouldn’t tell a programmer how to write down the code, but the end result is not something the programmer has some special understanding of. It’s jumping on top of a box, not fine art or music.
For more complex games with advanced battle systems or maybe roleplaying games in which you level up characters or real time strategy games, in such games the programmer would be an important part of the team. Then you would have to team up with some programmer to get things to work properly. But in a platformer game, in a third person shooter game, in a racing game, in a hack and slash game. A few more logic bricks would be enough.
Frankly I see no other way for blender to be relevant, unreal and unity are FREE. What is blender’s game engine ever going to do to beat those guys at making games? The only thing blender could realistically do is to make the programming part of game creation easy, the logic bricks is blender’s strength, make them more powerful and blender is going to produce better looking games.
That’s a long time, I learned using cycles’s material nodes over a weekend and logic bricks in an hour.
Really? In a weekend you learned to a level to make photorealistic graphics that rival those of Andrew Price. And in an hour you learned logic brick’s states, the actuator sensor (yes, it does exist, go look at it), and all of the systems other quirks…
It’s very different learning how to click-drag nodes together to create “something” and learning how to actually use the tool.
make them a bit more powerful and programmers would not be needed
Two things?
- Who is going to implement that? programmers
- So you’re telling me that with a “few more” logic bricks, the multiple thousand lines of code I developed for work, and for my own games would be completely redundant. I hereby challenge you to replicate Inferno without any code. Shouldn’t be hard - there’s nothing that novel. (and only 1000 lines code - that’s tiny) Or heck, just go improve the graphics for me.
These new bricks combined with what we already got would remove python. Most people would have no need for programmers anymore. You would see more quality games being made in blender, most people don’t need complex features, they want the basics and a few more logic bricks would provide all the basics needed to create the most popular genres of games.
Uhh, the definition of a new game with new mechanics pretty much is a “complex feature” - particularly if you want to make an actual new game rather than just a mod. If you want to make a game with no scripting, find the game the most similar you can and mod the models.
I once argued the exact opposite side of this discussion, back in 2009 and 2010 or so. At that time I couldn’t see far enough past the facade that software pulls across our eyes to see what is actually happening behind the scenes. Let me tell you: software is hard and software is complex, and nothing, not even “visual programming” will change that.
Back in the 80s programmers made games, today they’re made by artists, it’s important to acknowledge this and enable artists to make indie games.
Please, watch some GDC talks about what actually goes into modern game making. Here are three that talk about the tools the artists use:
Here’s one on the graphics of a game called “Inside”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdN06E6Xn9E
Here’s one on how terrain is made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In1wzUDopLM
Here’s one on the level making system for fallout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBAM27YbKZg
The goal of a game is that you can’t see the programming - and that may have tricked you into believing there was none when there was in fact a huge amount. A game is a combination of graphics, physics and logic. Yes. And you need all three to make a game. And the logic? Anyone who makes that is a “programmer” of some sort.
@Retsnom:
They’re a game designer, which is a completely different set of skills.
it sounds alot like you are saying a programmer could make the next great game from standard assets?
sure, you could get something pretty interesting if you changed them a bit, made some tweaks. but you need to know modelling and materials first.
standard assets are just like visual code. the prebuilt code blocks may get you far, but theres this magic point in which small tweaks could be made to certain bricks to take it to the next level. either that, or it gets wildly redundant.
would you say that there is an easier way to model then having to go through the LONG, TEDIOUS, PAINFUL amount of time to learn modelling tools and methods? oh DO tell… 
it sounds alot like you are saying a programmer could make the next great game from standard assets?
Who me?
I fully appreciate that an artist is needed to make a system look good. I know that martinsh makes things look about a million times better than me (seriously, he does). But:
- A game with no code is not a game (ie not interactive)
- A game with no art is a bad looking game.
And the amount of programming that goes into a modern game is truly phenomenal. If you consider the millions of man-hours that have gone into modern game engines, there is more programming going into most modern games than there is art. Even without taking the engine into consideration, I have yet to come across a game project that is delayed because the art was behind schedule.
So you’re telling me that with a “few more” logic bricks, the multiple thousand lines of code I developed for work, and for my own games would be completely redundant.
Yes.
Really? In a weekend you learned to a level to make photorealistic graphics that rival those of Andrew Price.
I use maps for everything, most of the work is done in photoshop. Fresnel, gloss and diffuse, done.
I hereby challenge you to replicate Inferno without any code. Shouldn’t be hard - there’s nothing that novel. (and only 1000 lines code - that’s tiny) Or heck, just go improve the graphics for me.
Challenege accepted, shouldn’t take long, I’ll just improve the graphics not make it look next gen or anything, that would take too long.
Here’s one on the graphics of a game called “Inside”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdN06E6Xn9E
Here’s one on how terrain is made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In1wzUDopLM
Here’s one on the level making system for fallout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBAM27YbKZg
I’m aware of what’s needed to make a game.
would you say that there is an easier way to model then having to go through the LONG, TEDIOUS, PAINFUL amount of time to learn modelling tools and methods? oh DO tell…
So you want a tool that makes graphics for you? My advice would be to go buy an asset pack, but for you to design models and music yourself without actually understanding how to do it, that’s not possible. Logic bricks however simplifies this process for non programmers and that’s a good thing. You’re not useless but you’re not that important, programmers are always going to follow orders from the higher ups, namely people who design the actual game. Artists are experts at designing something beautiful that everyone can see and appreciate on screen, musicians compose music that everyone can listen to and appreciate, writers know how to write a story and characters that people find appealing. Programmers know how to use numbers and text to make something jump. If anything about the character jumping is impressive it’s the character’s animation.
Put the jumping behaviour and some additoinal behaviours into logic bricks and your job is done. Unless the behaviour is so complex that it would be difficult to do it with logic bricks or visual scripting then you may do some more work. Anyway sdfgeoff I accept your challenge, I’ll post a thread later today or maybe this weekend.
Try to acknowledge this and then realize that blender’s game engine, if it’s going to be used at all it’s going to be used by indie developers. Ok so a very small team of people are going to be using the engine, hmm how do we as blender developers ensure good games are produced by the engine. Do we try to convince artists, writers and musciains to spend 6 months learning C# or other programming languages, or do we develop the logic bricks further? I think the answer is obvious, yes you would see a lot of 3d platformers, sidescrollers and racing games. But surely such games would be preferable to running around as a cube or rolling down a hill as a rock.
lol this is great.
I don’t think you understand the situation you’re in, kid.
That list of indie games you dismissed so quickly are the result of the free market. They’re made by programmers and they’re beloved by hundreds of thousands of people - they are objectively successful indie games.
Hence, you’re unequivocally wrong when you say all good indie games are made by artists.
Oh, and by the way, before you tell me that the games on the list from before are garbage, let me say this: It really doesn’t matter what you consider to be a good game. And it doesn’t matter that you think you can make a great game because you’re an artist. The only thing that matters is what makes money. Right now, programmers are primarily the ones using products to create successful indie games, therefore, products will be made primarily for programmers. So either get with the times or become a millionaire because, if you can’t do either, you’re not making any successful games buddy.
sorry, not you, the leinadien. should have qouted.
Those kinds of frameworks exist for other game engines and yet, it did not allow many artists to create games without programmers. Your 2.5D camera setup is very limited and works for one kind of game. And even for that, it is very likely that certain adjustments are needed for every game due to special requirements.
When the character jumps on the box, does it need to be simulated in a physical way or is the movement defined by the animation? How do you know which animation to play and when if the character is landing on the box or maybe just missing it? If the player is very fast, can he slip over the box? Do we need to play other sound effects in this case? Does it need to be easy for the player to do it, such that it can basically not go wrong? How can you make sure that all those cases are believable?
But it is just jumping on a box. How hard can it be?
You are oversimplifying the situation.
reality check: artists take orders from higher ups too. stop with this elitist crap. its whoever came up with the game idea and assembled a team. thats who is in charge.
game mechanics are alot more then jumping dumb ass. but since youve never done anything reasonably complex, you wouldnt know that.
you ignored my point. having an asset pack is great. but a prebuilt assets have some constraints.
ill tell you what, go buy yourself a programmer to code your bricks. problem solved. working for free means the work done is going to be worthwhile and on that persons time table. nothings free you know, time is money so they say.
getting an upgraded render engine is WAY more important then logic bricks. hell, we are lucky the bge is still around. if not for upbge there likely would be no game engine 2.8.
getting an upgraded render engine is WAY more important then logic bricks.
Hell no, nobody cares for next generation cubes.
And here’s your game sdfgeoff, I first decided to do something with a tunnel like yours then I thought but what character would go through a tunnel, a spaceship lame. Next best thing which don’t need any textures would be a spaceman so I took a marvel superhero and fuck the tunnel he just got to shoot on enemies in space. I have other stuff to do so this was thrown together quickly, in one hour I could with logic bricks create something of similar quality to your tunnel game.:evilgrin: Improve upon those logic bricks a bit and things wouldn’t be so buggy.
Two things?
- Who is going to implement that? programmers
- So you’re telling me that with a “few more” logic bricks, the multiple thousand lines of code I developed for work, and for my own games would be completely redundant. I hereby challenge you to replicate Inferno without any code. Shouldn’t be hard - there’s nothing that novel. (and only 1000 lines code - that’s tiny) Or heck, just go improve the graphics for me.
Looks like you won the challenge lol
And truth has been revealed!
lol this isn’t even close to the quality of Inferno. I’m guessing you didn’t want to do the tunnel because you didn’t know how? hahaha nice one man.
Things you didn’t have: HUD (with bars, not just text), menu, options, similar gameplay
Also, the game ends abruptly when you hit an asteroid (or something, I really can’t tell), there’s not even a winning/losing screen (yes, you could have done this in under one hour).
You skipped the hardest parts of the game - that’s very peculiar for a logic brick master like yourself.
Edit:
For anyone wondering, here’s a comparison of the two games…
Inferno (sdfgeoff version)
Inferno (Leinadien version)
What are you loling about, here are the facts:
•I zremeshed an 8 million polygon character I was working on down to 6000 faces.
•I did not give him any textures, no normals, no diffuse map, no spec map.
•I did not bother to weight paint him properly.
•I created three very crappy animations for him.
•I found two sounds from the internet for when he shoots his laser and uses his boost.
•Created a cube that tracks the enemy, duplicated the enemy when you kille 5 of them the game ends.
All this I did in one hour, you do realize they pay me to make next gen models right? I could make this game look like a next gen game if I cared to, but I’m not going to spend hours working on something that will eventually be thrown away anyway just to prove you wrong. Inferno is not graphically impressive and the gameplay isn’t complicated either.
Things you didn’t have: music, sounds, HUD (with bars, not just text), menu, options, similar gameplay
I added a soundtrack and some sound effects.
Also, the game ends abruptly when you hit an asteroid (or something, I really can’t tell), there’s not even a winning/losing screen (yes, you could have done this in under one hour).
Yeah you die, the game ends.
You skipped the hardest parts of the game - that’s very peculiar for a logic brick master like yourself.
I work in zbrush, photoshop, corel painter mostly. That’s what they’re paying me for, no money in logic bricks kid. If I spend more hours on this the guy would have a normal map, he might be properly retopologized, he would be weight painted correctly and have better animations. I’m sure it’s possible to have his laser beam look better, blender’s particle effects are rather limiting though. Then I guess you could put him in some kind of enviroment that don’t consist of just empty space and tall cubes. But that’s hours of work which I’m not going to put into this project just to stop you from loling.
Here’s my challenge to you, in one hour do something of similar quality, I want a human character, animated and attacking and killing enemies, one hour, get to work.
I didn’t notice the soundtrack + sounds, my bad bro - I edited my previous post to reflect that.
I know you think that what you’ve done in one hour is impressive, but it really isn’t. My ten year old cousin made a game just like yours in about the same amount of time. Granted, instead of silver surfer, it was a space ship (you should have probably done that with your “game”, the silver surfer doesn’t do it for me). He also had a menu and win/lose screen, so he beat you at that.
The one impressive thing, if anything, was lowering the face count to 6k from 8 million, which I could do in about 30 seconds with a shrink wrap modifier. However, I wouldn’t ever need to do that because I’d just pay/ask someone to create the model for me - making models, texturing and animating isn’t something I’m interested in, but I greatly appreciate the art form nonetheless.
I’d be impressed if you had actually replicated in Inferno, but that didn’t happen.
Like I said in a previous post, get with the times buddy. Artists need to learn to program or become millionaires, they won’t be making any successful games otherwise - that’s just the reality of the situation right now (with very few exceptions, like To the Moon).
You seem to think that being an artist and being a coder is mutually exclusive - they’re clearly not. But whatever.
Anyways, I’m done with this. Continue on with your delusion that the only artists are capable of creating great indie games. Don’t learn to program, and see how far that gets you in creating a successful indie game. If you don’t want to create a successful indie game, don’t ask for visual programming, the tools would only be wasted.
In actuality, he used the best auto-retopology algorithm available right now (which can produce meshes with decent topology). All it takes really is pushing a button and maybe laying down some feature lines.
Anyway, at this point there’s no use discussing anything with him. He believes in a supposed incapability of being wrong and will blow off anyone who doesn’t come in perfect agreement with the narrative. I will at least comment on the idea that the AAA steam games mentioned were made by artists, in that it completely ignores the complex behind-the-scenes work done by programmers to make said art perform and move the way they were intended (using compiled code nonetheless, I doubt that everything in those games were done with visual programming tools like logic bricks and Unreal Blueprint nodes). Look at the credits of any large game and you’ll find that they require dozens of people working in different areas, just because the programmers didn’t create anything that the player actually sees on the monitor doesn’t mean they didn’t exist.
no money in logic bricks kid.
And that is what we have been saying for the past three pages. There’s no money in logic bricks. But there sure is in programming.
Inferno is not graphically impressive and the gameplay isn’t complicated either.
Nope, sure isn’t. But that doesn’t stop it from being quite a fun game!
Kudos for actually getting a game created! Not quite the challenge I laid out, but hey, its a game, and I’m quite impressed you actually got something made. So well done.
Here’s my challenge to you, in one hour do something of similar quality, I want a human character, animated and attacking and killing enemies, one hour, get to work.
All right. Challenge accepted. One hour to make a game. It won’t be a human model though. I don’t do those. I’m not sure about killing enemies either. But it will be a game. I haven’t yet decided if I’ll let myself use python or restrict myself to logic bricks…
I don’t know if I’ll publish it in this thread, but keep your eye out in the WIP forum. I’ll see if I can screen record the process.
Anyone else going to take up the challenge with me? (I’ll start tomorrow rather than trying to do something productive at midnight, so don’t expect something anytime soon)
I know you think that what you’ve done in one hour is impressive
It’s quite impressive for one hour yes, one hour isn’t a lot of time.
•Create a low poly human.
•Rig him
•Give him three animations
•Add controls to him
•Add enemies
•Search the internet for appropiate sounds
•Put it all together into something that resembles a game
Just creating a crappy low poly human and animating him would probably take you more than an hour. If I would remaster this “game” the character would look like this ingame:
http://payload237.cargocollective.com/1/13/438962/7048258/SilverSurfere.jpg
The animations would be life like, the sound effects would be of high quality, would probably have reverb and sound really impressive in deep space. The laser beam and trail would also look better, the real time particles is something I’m not quite sure of how to do but I’ll figure it out. The map would also be better looking, could put him on an alien planet surrounded by alien forces. Health bar for enemies and the hero could be added and a HUD, a main menu could be added and a game over screen. Maybe you could have the level start with an animation of the surfer coming in on his board towards a static camera and have the winning screen be him entering a meditation stance on his board praying. A lot of possabilities and yes it would be easy and far more graphcally appealing than what you’re capable of doing Lucrecious.
I’d just pay/ask someone to create the model for me - making models, texturing and animating isn’t something I’m interested in, but I greatly appreciate the art form nonetheless.
Yeah you would kneel before me with 200 dollars in your palm, would I do the same thing for your programming. Not if the logic bricks were better, in one hour I made a game prototype, with more time and effort the game mechanics would be refined, not a single line of code needed.
All right. Challenge accepted. One hour to make a game. It won’t be a human model though. I don’t do those. I’m not sure about killing enemies either. But it will be a game. I haven’t yet decided if I’ll let myself use python or restrict myself to logic bricks…
I don’t know if I’ll publish it in this thread, but keep your eye out in the WIP forum. I’ll see if I can screen record the process.
Anyone else going to take up the challenge with me? (I’ll start tomorrow rather than trying to do something productive at midnight, so don’t expect something anytime soon)
Looking forward to this, too bad you won’t animate a human.
…except for the hundreds of thousands of lines of code required to make all of this work. Everything has been prefabricated for you to be able to do this. You want to play with LEGOs. You can do a lot of stuff with LEGOs, but at some point you’ll be missing some piece. Try implementing an inventory system with persistent data storage. Try implementing a particular camera behavior. If you don’t understand any of these things, you can’t make them happen - visual programming or not. You’ll need a programmer to make more LEGOs for you.
Visual programming has been attempted many many times in the last decades. It works well for simple things, like the ones you are currently succeeding in. With more complex things, it quickly becomes inferior to textual programming. If it wasn’t that way, it would’ve caught on everywhere, not just in niches. It’s not because programmers are autistic or because they dislike graphs.
Also, for someone with such minimal experience programming, you seem to have a lot of strong preconceptions. If you actually sat down and learned it properly, you would eventually be able to look back and see how misinformed you were. You will have learned a very valuable skill. Alternatively, you can keep complaining about the status quo on internet forums and stay dependent on others to do programming for you. Nobody cares.
Lastly, you don’t need 900 pages of C# palaver to learn programming. That’s counter-productive. Lots of educational institutions now recognize that Java/C# are terrible introductory languages. They’re switching to Python, for example. Blender already uses it. Learning even a little bit can be tremendously useful for automating tasks.
One hour game. Everything was made in that hour (including all assets).
Totally just found out about this:
http://onehourgamejam.com/
As good as yours? Who knows. Considering that I didn’t start out with an 8-million poly mesh…
That’s cool, I like the exhaust how it gradually increases in strength, not sure how to do that myself. Needs an animated humanoid though or maybe a more impressive spaceship, still, good stuff good stuff.