What can we all do to help the bge??

Okay… There’s been a lot of arguing and debate about bge. (How can you miss it :eek:). People are trying to prove there point about bge’s capabilities and flaws. We come up with new ideas for tools that would improve bge, but is that going go help improve the bge by just posting our ideas? The devs can only do so much and most of them are focused on cycles not bge, except a couple of them here on BlenderArtist, thank you devs by the way:). What we should be doing is asking our selves what can we do to improve the bge or to help make it more well known? Well, I have two propositions, and I posted these before on discussions but I’ll say them again.

-One, we need to create a group of bge developers who are willing to help teach the bge community how to build on to bge. That way we would have a whole community working to improve bge rather than a couple of people. I’m sure if we had a couple of developers giving tutorials on the essentials of how to build onto bge we would have a lot more development in many areas.

  • Two,most of the time we focus on solo game projects just for the fun of learning. Most lager projects don’t get finished because there’s not enough man power do do it. So, why can’t we focus on less solo projects and more on a game project for the entire community to help teach newbies and to challenge everybody to work together as a game dev team? I’m sure that the unity and udk demos weren’t just put together by just a small team, so why do we try achieve something as good as those teams by our selves? I think bge has been underestimated mainly because there’s not enough people working together to achieve something big. That’s exactly why I propose we do just that, find a “friendly for all” game to make, not like those FPS zombie blood type games, but something like a real world racing game or a robot FPS or TPS (Third person shooter) that wouldn’t be full of gore. Then we could have everybody, who’s willing , pitch in where they can to help plan, design and build it. there are lots of people who specializes in modeling, texturing, or animating things, and others who specialize in logic bricking, scripting, or improving performance that would benefit greatly to making a game. And if they are wanting to learn in certain area of bge I’m sure people would be more than willing to teaching them.:yes:

bge is a great engine and I believe these two propositions could greatly increase the use of it :yes: . Feel free to leave any comments about you opinions on them.

Blender game engine is in great shape but I can’t see why developing game engine further on would be irrelevant or even not be a “good thing”?

Project Wrectified, is a Blender Open Game Project, in the team project section, and will be a “Robot” third person puzzle solving RTs. It’s slightly slow to develop, because there is just me (not a great coder) and Kevin - (busy great coder) working at it, we have artists in the wings, but we are making the backbone systems at the moment, and could really use someone who is a BGE pro to help.

Again, I made this project with this exact thought in mind…

A game teaching game…

Each object will be commented
Concepts in the game will help with coding,
the game uses 3d logic node assemblies in game which are still a WIP, but imagine pre-made chunks of logic that can be snapped together to make everything from vehicles, to enemies and puzzles…

I am a semi-leader/moderator but am not opposed to someone who is more versed in the BGE leading…

The state of BGE development is completely irrelevant, as implied in this post:http://www.blenderartists.org/forum/…=1#post2466821

As a tool to make games, it’s already more than good enough, so even if no one touched the BGE source, ever again, it wouldn’t really matter (it would actually have certain stability benefits).

I didn’t really mean it like that. What I meant was there are people implementing new things as we speak like the hive, which is in a pre-alpha stage in bge, and the new LOD system, and there is a lot of people who would like to start learning how to help build onto bge like these people do, but they don’t know how. Now of course you start by learning c++ until you get good enough but where do you go from there? That’s why I had the Idea of the first proposal.

It’s irrelevant to making good games, because you can do that already, with the BGE as it is now.

Of course, improvements can only help, but I’m just trying to make the clear point: Even if there were no improvements, ever, it would be ok.

People seem to think that all our problems stem from the engine not being “good enough”, but that’s simply not true -> The problem is with the people, who wouldn’t be able to make something worthwhile even if CryEngine was integrated into Blender.

For the vast majority of people here (most of whom are complaining) technology is simply not the issue.

Actually, I think that hive is a bad idea, as I argued in the post I linked to previously (there’s a few other posts in that thread where I explain my views in more detail). As for the LOD system: It’s not really going to enable anyone in the BGE community to complete a massive world/scale game (which could actually benefit from such a system), so it’s hard to see the effective utility. It’s probably going to convince a lot of people that they can make their own WoW clone, but they still won’t be able to do that, so it doesn’t really matter.

and there is a lot of people who would like to start learning how to help build onto bge like these people do

I doubt that.

Even if we’re talking about programmers, most find engine work boring, especially when there’s so much technical debt to deal with, and it’s virtually impossible to make significant changes without rewriting the whole core (even if you know what you’re doing).

They either think the BGE is not good enough, and that they want to “fix” that, so they can make their dream game, or they just want to add relatively benign features, to carry the title of “developer”.

I know this sounds counter-intuitive for non-programmers, but code quality can actually go down as contributions go up; It depends highly on the people involved, and what they’re doing.

In either case, I think most people on these forums would better spend their focus on making games, rather than the engine itself.

As I said: The engine is fine -> We need to get better.

As for development, I’m in no real position to say if Blender needs help or not, though it seems that all the features I need to make my game are there. Of course the API could be improved and there could be added some extra functions here and there to make things easier and more logical. Just an example, it would be nice to be able to get the source path of an image or to enable/disable ghost on an object directly (without using the parent trick), and so fort. But I think bug-fixing has priority over this and I’m sure current devs are working on that as we speak.

As for the LOD system: It’s not really going to enable anyone in the BGE community to complete a massive world/scale game (which could actually benefit from such a system), so it’s hard to see the effective utility. It’s probably going to convince a lot of people that they can make their own WoW clone, but they still won’t be able to do that, so it doesn’t really matter.

If thats not good then,should the devs stop working? You sounded like, Eh just another useless thing…

There are uses for LOD system outside “WoW clones”. In fact it’s hard to imagine a game that couldn’t benefit from LOD.

Okay, so the first proposal seems to be pretty much ruled out, but what about the second one? Please stay on topic.

Ahem Cough

Project

Cough

What BGE could most benefit from is for certain individuals (they know who they are :slight_smile: ) to make a tutorial or barebones documentation on asset storing and managing with BGE.

We could really use a good example (not a template!) game that taught us how to use libraries, external files, instancing, classes, AI, pathfinding, sound system, shaders and why not some of the more covered topics like logic bricks vs python, particle system, UI, text.

That would make it easier for people both find answers and also trust that BGE can really bring things together and pull all of that off at once.

EDIT: I can and do help people with specific python or game design problems but my knowledge is limited to somewhere which is also capping my own progress with my project. I could do tutorials but the topics are covered already, otherwise I wouldn’t know about instancing and classing monsters, creating particle system etc. in the first place.

I just wish that the ones who know most would share not the basic stuff but the most advanced stuff they know so we could spread the top tier information as well.

Omg guys, stop bringing back the LOD. An LOD system is made by the programmer, not the program. Look at windwaker!!! They have two models for the islands in the distance, one low poly from far, and the closer u get, they change it to high quality. This was programmed. It makes me kringe hearing ppl talk about the LOD not being good enough. The LOD isn’t good because you cant make it good. PERIOD!

That Aside I think the biggest thing that would help the bge, is just more and more export game options, like for IOS, Android. The bge would rock on phones, with very easy scene overlaying., and as well as asynchronous networking for a flawless network. Those ‘I THINK’ are the only things needed to make the BGE as best as it can be. The fact that its free makes it a bazillion times better.

We could really use a good example (not a template!) game that taught us how to use libraries, external files, instancing, classes, AI, pathfinding, sound system, shaders and why not some of the more covered topics like logic bricks vs python, particle system, UI, text.

With all the things you just mentioned, programming is the foundation for all of that. Goran has made a similar point elsewhere. For example, to effectively use classes, a basic understanding of OOP concepts such as inheritance/encapsulation/polymorphism would be important. Some people go crazy and create classes for everything when there is a simpler and more efficient solution. Another example, networking requires a basic understanding of BSD sockets, TCP/UDP/etc. protocols. If somebody doesn’t know the differences between TCP and UDP, they’re going to have a hard time understanding why one or the other is more suitable.

Depending on the person, learning programming by starting with the BGE might not be the best way to start due to the slight initial complexity. Simply put, creating a game requires programming knowledge (beyond logic bricks); there is no way around it. Logic bricks can only supplement programming and never really replace it, although we’ll see how they develop as they have a lot of potential and room for improvement. Personally, I see the logic bricks as an organizational tool, so more like the toolbelt rather than the hammer itself :p. I think redesigning the logic editor or integrating HIVE is the first step.

The most successful game to date with the BGE, is Dead Cyborg. Honestly, if he open-sourced his game, I would become a developer and contribute in the form of programming (well, once I finish my current endeavor), simply because of the fact he created all of that by himself which shows a level of talent, skill, and dedication. There are a few others that are progressing well.

One relatively new genre that has not been fully explored are MMOFPS, like PlanetSide.

It’d be cool if we had a BGENation, specifically focusing on the BGE, like we have BlenderNation, that talks about the most promising projects and latest development. Or do we already something like it? Hmm, time to send out another email…

What can we all do to help the BGE ? I think we need to learn C++ , GLSL and Python to fix all those bugs first. BGE seems ok for mini games but alot of improvements are needed to make it match the performance of let’s say , Battlefield 3. How many animated characters can you guys put on the screen with BGE before it starts to stutter ? Like one ? Two maybe ? To recreate BF3 we need 64 animated characters plus vehicles plus a large scene covered with trees and grass and other stuff. You guys should try to recreate a BF3 like scene with Cycles renderer and it’s not going to happen without some tricky LOD switching or procedural generator.

there are ways to resolve performance issues like that… one is of course LOD and another thing would be occlusion. There are also many other ways like having your level divided up into many different scenes as well as LibLoad .

BGE will not able to compete with some commercial engine that was created exclusively for it’s purpose with hundreds of millions of dollar budget. And it doesn’t need to, either.

Let’s stop talking about the wrong thing. Right now the problem with the bge is ease if development and a lack of feature like an animation manager( to prevent animations playing over themselves and stopping certain threads from existing). UDK has a level complexity view mode to help you pin-point problem area’s. It acknowledges that it is a game engine. To help lets look at pet peeves and come up with ways to to streamline the workflow and adding industry standard tools like the rest of blender does.

Thats not a issue at all if you use animation via ragdolls :smiley:

Procedural animations based on force,

(multithreading works on physics?)

But would you say that that is easier and simpler to do when compared to just a simple animation manager?

Yes, as I can mix an infinite number of force applications,

I think it’s the future of rigs, as you can shoot it in the face, and input force TO THE HEAD :smiley:

It’s 100% collidable,

So I can have it “Attempt” to match any animation state as well, with simple python,
but this is still in it’s infancy.

another thing,
If I have a game, like skyrim/fallout etc with a “strength” modifier,
one players “animation” could defeat anothers, as they could have greater input forces/mass etc.

each piece is it’s own collidable (not deforming) Rigid body,
linked with 6dof

I can hook anything into the rig btw