What's the relevance of Eevee?

I think people are forgetting that the basic idea is still replacing the standard 3D viewport display engine with something faster, more modern and more easily extensible. In the end Eevee will not only look better (so much that it can be used as a rendering engine on its own), but it will also be faster than the current “Solid shading mode” while optionally allowing effects and features that were not previously possible. Eventually the detail level will be able to be tweaked.

You don’t understand that people don’t always needs all the feature of a render engine.
Look at those videos.

As you can see this is not perfect but no need to cycles to make great renders, even photorealistic renders.

Using eevee to create lights, work shaders, reflexions etc in real time and then send it to cycles is really great.

You should be abble to understand that :wink:

Sadly I can’t remember the source, but I red somewhere around this forum, that also some big production movie/series used realtime renders, eventually heavily postprocessed.

You make a good point, and getting to ‘test render’ in real time in the viewport is great and all, but for me that would just be a tease if I couldn’t also get a really fast production render. :slight_smile:

You are right.

But plans are known for modifiers and physics.
At the end, they will be replaced by nodes.
So, at that moment, they will use node textures.

But It is not scheduled for 2.8 but after. So, BI textures will probably be kept at that level.

BI textures are used in Compositing nodes.

There are several based on same basis and are older than texture nodes.
The idea behind cycles ones is to have good basis as nodes. Most of Cycles textures are using same patterns than BI ones (Blend=Gradient, Clouds=Noïse, Magic=Magic, Marble=Wave distorted by other texture, Musgrave=Musgrave, Stucci=Musgrave+Wave, Wood=Wave, Noïse= any texture + a colorramp).
Most of time, you can obtain a result close to Blender procedurals with Cycles ones.
Cycles procedurals are integrated into shading nodetree. They are visible in Viewport.
So, Cycles textures have already advantages upon BI textures.
But it looks like Cycles lacks some nodes to help to create complex stuff as easily than BI procedurals.
Cycles nodes can be improved. At that moment, I don’t think that you will be so categorical.

It is the key point. You will still be able to bake Cycles textures if you want to re-use them in a modifier.
Will it be possible to continue to bake textures from a modifier if BI is removed but BI textures are still present in UI ?
It will be confusing to add BI procedurals in shading nodetree if Cycles ignore them.
But dynamic paint or ocean modifier are able to bake texture. We could imagine that part of BI could stay in background and this behaviour could be extended to all modifiers using textures until modifiers become nodes.

BI is still in 2.8, for the moment. Devs have to wait until Eevee is satisfying in all areas supported by BI before thinking to remove it.
The roadmap is talking about Blender Internal Conversion around mid august.
So, they have time to think about it.
Wait and see. Be ready to re-ask your question in august.

It really depends on your use case. If you are doing high end product renders, or VFX, or high end archiviz, you’re going to need a path tracer. If the render is the product, then having it be as high quality as possible is important. But there are a whole lot of people (self included) who are using rendering to assist in selling a different product. I work in commercial displays. The marketing world moves fast, and doesn’t always expect a high quality render for previsualization. And as much as it frustrates me that our clients don’t know the difference between SSAO and 12 bounce GI, it’s a fact of life. my clients would rather see something before end of day that looks 90% good enough, than wait til the morning for a 100% quality render. Eevee can get to that 90% level instantly.

For some of my freelance clients, I would never use Eevee. For some of them, I’ll never use cycles again. It opens up more possibilities for services that I can sell, while keeping them cost effective. Once I have modeled and textured everything, doing a quick flyby animation is trivial. But If I want to cover the 6 hours of rendering time, I can’t get a client to sign off on that. I can get them to sign off if the rendering time goes to 10 minutes though.

Eevee isn’t going to replace having a real path tracer, but for a lot of situations it will work just fine.

Pardon me for jumping in here, but…

What does that mean, Blender Internal Conversion? Are you talking about conversion of BI materials/textures to Eevee or are you saying the BI engine will be converted to a standalone engine, ie. not spagetti-coded throughout the entirety of Blender? You know, so it can continue life as a plugin similar to Cycles?

Also just curious if you’re one of the developers. You seem to know a lot about this, although I suppose you could be just keeping up with all the dev thread reading some of the rest of us are loath to do because we just don’t get it. :slight_smile:

That means converting BI materials to Eevee. BI will not continue life in 2.8. It will live on forever in blender 2.79.

Perhaps a question that has already been asked:
Will it be possible to use Passes information (like Z, vector, etc) in OpenGL render image? Compositing with OpenGL render image results?

I am not a developer.
I am just a user following Blender development and giving feedback since 2.46.
I did not wrote the road map.
I am just responding to Jimmy Haze who is worried about universal uses of BI textures in areas not related to BI render.

At term, Blender Internal will be abandoned. But devs will not do it before an evaluation of gain and loss when Eevee will look mature enough to replace it.
It is what I understood from last article on code.blender.org.
Eevee is at early state. So, there is no reason to be worried, yet or to speculate about devs intention in that area.
If you test current 2.8 build, it is obvious that you do not consider it as a serious production blender release.

When devs will work on subject of conversion of our old files, we would have request that would make sense; but they did not start, yet.
So let’s give feedback about light probe instead.

Will it be possible to use Passes information (like Z, vector, etc) in OpenGL render image? Compositing with OpenGL render image results?

Yes. It is what is planned to be done in design discussion around renderlayers.
In 2.8, 3D View layers, Scene Layers limited to a number of 20 are fused into Renderlayers at demand concept.
But it does not mean that passes of our 2.7x renderlayers are gone.
There are just not re-introduced into 2.8, yet.

Cool! But I think I did not understand the “re-introduced” part you said.
Passes/compositing with OpenGL render images result should be a new feature to develop, because even in Blender 2.7x compositing/passes is not possible with OpenGL render images result, Right?

Right. It is a new feature but an idea that we are already familiar with.
Like a render button that create an image related to chosen engine, it is not there in Eevee UI, yet.
But there is no doubt that at a moment of development, pressing a Render item will display an Eevee Image if Eevee is used engine.
Currently, F12 creates a BI image.
The end of BI does not mean the end of compositing nodes in Blender.
In 2.79, you can render GP layers as several passes of an .EXR.
There is no reason to think that a team who did that will not provide decent solution in term of compositing.

OK thanks.
Knowing that reflections on objects are going to depend on user configuration (probes) and that there will be some limitations, it has been a bit shocking to me… But the shock is gone and very enthusiastic about how the development of the project continues :slight_smile:

Yey, Eevee! Im not gonna render my animations any more, thx BF. :smiley:

I don’t think anyone’s saying it can replace Cycles for all cases, but just a subset (Cycles will still be needed for anything involving more advanced effects).

There’s also the fact that Eevee is likely to become the new material mode for use with Cycles (so yes, I myself am quite unlikely to replace Cycles with Eevee for anything, but it will be useful as a preview tool).

It’s going to replace cycles for me. I don’t need anything great, just something similar (likely better) to SFM’s render in Blender.

Thanks for posting those. I’ve already seen all of them except the car one. The “Adam” short is very nicely done. However, I can still see things that disturb my eyes. Especially the reflections in the hallway and buffered shadow and DOF artifacts. The rest of the examples are just not very impressive to my eyes. It’s certainly impressive that we can view these in real-time but we’ve had baked lighting for years now and it doesn’t really excite me. Again, it just looks like a high end game to my eyes.

I think what you’re saying above makes the most sense. It’s for super fast rendering where the client doesn’t really have a discerning eye and you just need to get it out as quickly as possible. I can also see this being a big deal for those doing real-time cell shading for a TV show.

Yeah, I think what I’m afraid of is more and more people will be saying what you’re saying enough that Cycles development takes a back seat to Eevee and we enter another period of slow development.

I’d like to have realtime Eevee + a slower Eevee that takes advantage of correct shadows/reflections by using more advanced (and slower) openGL techniques. So we could end with both a good realtime game graphics engine plus a bit slower openGL renderer that is almost as good as a pathtracer, that may render a frame in just a few seconds. Just a radiobox: Eevee realtime/offline

When I render in Evee (Render > OpenGL ) , I see in the UV image viewer that the values are not going higher than 1.0. (In other words, it seems there is no scene referred space / it is display referred ?).
Does this means, it has no use to export such a render as openEXR, for optimal post process?
Any idea if that will change in the future?