I agree. Demigod sounds so much better
/Nathan
ps. 
Itās not always obvious at the beginning of a production what is the best way to get to the end is and changes are made along the way. Itās only easy to see afterwards what you could have done better, but by then itās too late and you have to move onto the next thing.
Cheers,
Briggs
I knew that. 
Yet, why stopping halfway ?
Night
J.
itās interesting, the whole argument for crystalspace to be used was to prove the use of blender in a typical games pipelineā¦
commercial companies use commercial engines or their own proprietry engines. These will certainly not be ātightly integratedā with the asset creation app.
Most of the changes to facilitate this type of model will only really be āniceā (I hesitate to say possible as I this could be done now but the customisations are disproportionately hard compared to using maya for example) after the 2.5 re-factorā¦
games programmers love maya as it is pretty robust and easy to customise to allow you to add custom data etc into your pipeline and you can add the shaders youāll use in the game.
Now, using the game engine for prototyping and rapid feedback to the art team is much enhanced after apricot. an easier way to customise the interface and for data management for custom attributes andFull Collada support would be a big help though.
A typical problem in a games pipeline is that the export process is lengthy and not conducive to the art team getting a rapid turnaround for viewing their work in context and making more itterations on the artwork.
the changes to the BGE facilitate rapid prototyping and gives good feedback. i donāt know about the crystal space side of things, but even for delivery in an externel engine like crystal space a better BGE is still advantagous for rapid prototyping.
Thereās still a lot of stuff that āneeds to happenā to make blender more attractive to game developers but on a project I did earlier this year i could have saved 6 weeks of development time if the apricot version of blender was available when i started the project. Considering the whole project was running for six months that wouldāve been a massive saving!
I must say, Iām just a little bit concern because the way the plan it, not the way they did it finally, since the beginning of apricot I wanted them to push BGE over crystal space, but they said clearly that they would focus on crystal space for my disappointing, so they wrote a plan for apricot and at half of production they change completely , and is there way Iām disappointing because they SHOULD focus on BGE as a priority since the very beginning instead of testing with crystal space, now we would have even a much more powerful BGE version if they would focus on BGE only at the beginning, is not the same to end a product in 1 month than to end 2 products in the same period of time and in the middle of production changing their minds to focus in one of them and deliver a product where they have been wasting time in the other one, do you understand my point?
We understand your point, but one of the original goals of Apricot was making Blender work well with external game engines. This would make it fit better into pipeline, where studios use their own engines. There were plans for an api to include external engines as plugins and to even make BGE āonlyā a plugin, rather than an integrated part of Blender.
While I am a totally external observer, I did not see a bad thing they picked CS (it keeps sounding me as CounterStrike or Character Studio, lolā¦) . They had the idea, I suppose, of clearing the field for connections to other engines. Which indeed, is a great, great thing, and demanded by so many small companies that really were/are making the effort to build the team pipeline around Blender. True that the balance of no-cost-tool/just for the love of it, varies, but indeed price is an strong point for many casual games, indy, or B series game developers to totally base on Blender.
But I heard the news quite frightened. I knew since very long, (I worked long as game artist, but been before and after modding games, or making full art for indy and free games) but the facts were still there by then, that CS is complex, quite, to handle. Super powerful, with a great license, quite a good life span, and many advantages. But Iād had seen better choice Ogre, Irrlicht or some very few others (not that there are many crossplatform in good level. Maybe JME engine (itās java, but there are ways lately to make good distributable binaries for several platforms, even for games) itās quite robust and modern, and hey, they have a monkey as mascot! )
But then I thought that if they were choosing CS, they will have the coding or pipeline obstacles well thought. Which probably was.
For sure it has helped a lot in improving Blenderās comunication with other tools, and quite many game releated (that also benefit general 3D) .
In fact, other important question maybe missed wehn speaking about CS changeā¦ As I said, I worked in game companiesā¦is soooo frequent that in the middle of the life span of a project, engine is changed, orā¦physics engine is changedā¦or IA scripting trashed due to the game project requires whateverā¦orā¦simply as new pair of engineers get into which are more familiar with LUAā¦ whateeeeverā¦ Tons of changes of this kind. Is not bout failures, is natural organic flow of such a BEAST that is a game projectā¦ And it does not matter if is a casual, a casual or indy is usually done by 3 -5 ppl, and that can be really hard, harder than a huge title with like 100s of ppl behind. Iāve worked in company like that, and in a lot of medium, or smallā¦really hard.
technologies spectre, or a more compact application that builds bridges with external application for specialised tasks.
I have been always a diehard for that concept. Indeed, right now, Blender is my animation and rendering tool (keep modeling with wings/ultimate unwrap)ā¦BUTā¦ Comercial specialized tools keep dying for not able to fight the big guys (and even less in these times) or get aquired or integrated into them, so the indy is left with no option (Buying Max, Maya, is usually not). Other open source tools, or even freeware, are not ā¦well many of them are not in production level, am afraidā¦ (imo, Wings is, totally. Well, was/is in my case, clearly) .Right now Blender in the areas where is not yet, it is aproaching to that stateā¦ Iād vote today keep going for the stablished route: general tool that allows full 3d project making. It is not pretended to be an inkscape or Gimp, but it allows a full 3D project, be it game or movie, I think it only needs to polish some corners.
In my opinion the former case can put Blender in a vulnerable position. I donāt think there are resources enough to make Blender a generalist application that covers all the spectre of 3D tecnologies,
Well, I think itās getting it. Itās , imo not gonna be a -insert here the best application in an specialized area- killer, but who expects that of -any- generalist tool? Iād tell you, nooo tool does that, not even comercial ones. What you expect (reason why the so hated Max here, is a neck saver in videogame, despite its interface) of a generalist tool, is that it allows you to climb any hill in the huge complexity of a movie or game project. (todayās 3d tools aim for both, be it generalist or specialized) . Even if you gotta do some tricks. Imo the key for blender is reduce the number of tricky ways, and fix some probs. But not to stop adding featuresā¦ thatās a dead end for a 3D tool, you need to keep on par for making real projects. I myself am all for new constraints and rigging improvements: is key for have a good animation baseā¦
Maya is not the best poly modeler out there (imo), Max modeling is neither better than some recently appeared in the market specialized toolsā¦ Usually they trust in good external renderersā¦Brazil, Final Render, Mental Ray, Vrayā¦yesā¦doing a fantastic connection, better said, integration, even. Indeed, the other thing Iād love to see is that new render api, or better integration with renderers.
But dunno, thanks to an user plugin am keeping the hard edges importing my already modeled and uvmapped models from wings, the b3d user made exporter works like charm, and so on. I mean, it has a lot of comunication already, it needs more, yep, every tool needs it.
Thatās why I think that the later option is more intesting and probably more realistic, it would be sad if Blender turns out to be just a collection of mediocre tools.
The point isā¦all generalist tool out there has areas in which one would say itās being mediocre and even less than mediocre. IE: I donāt think Max when was at seven version, had a lightmapping system of a lot of quality. Or Maya older versions, a serious polygon modelerā¦ And indeed, there are deeper, darker glitches in highend tools, which be a so long list to make. I donāt think it is needed all time to bring the matter of ācomercial tools canāt do eitherā, but the fact is, if they have huuge teams of quite well paid, and for sure very good programmers and analysts, itās probably no so simple to make an all-round, all perfect in every area tool.
The way I see it, blender have a solid thing in modeling (which would be the smallest prob if not: is dead easy already to import from any modeler, itās double reason to care more on other thingsā¦ ) , but every improvement in rigging, animation and rendering would be quite a good thing: Thereās no tool doing those tasks, in a game company they cannot say, hey, if blender doesnāt cut it in this feature needed, or workflow needed, we can temporarily switch to blender and then switch backā¦ no usable -exchangable tool for complex constraints and animation system out thereā¦
And the problem I see with external renderers isā¦most seem to be thought not for animation, but statics. It is lovable to be able to do such a realistic static render, but imo, Blender focusing so much in movies since allways , I see better to improve internal renderer, if in every external renderer out there, youāre not gonna be able to render particles, hair, not even motion blur, and anyway, rendering times of one single frame will take hours or daysā¦
Blender allows already (it does in my case) to do full projects. Iād really really would like some areas improved (in my case, easier, more flexible constraints and weighting), as we all want.
Iāve just finished reading that, I was nearly laughing my head off at certain points!
That certainly clears things up a LOT ( Iām sure people will argue that there are 2 or more sides to every story, but that one seems to tick all of the boxes regarding previous news snippets ).
Blengine, I salute your honesty, and thank you for a great read! 
Mal
Were there ever, in history, two OSS projects that worked well together ?
I am just asking.
Jean
Very interesting story blengine, clears a lot upā¦
You certainly have a very detailed, blunt and truthful way of describing these things. It feels almost controversial. :spin:
Im looking forward to comparing the CS version of the game to the BGE versionā¦ Thats for sureā¦
Thanks for sharing.
blengine thatāsā¦ just beautiful man.
@blengine Thanks for the eye-witness report straight from within the battlefield that was the early days/weeks/months of Apricot.
Meā¦ scurrys off to read the entire Apricot Blog to put faces and names to āthe Candaian thugā and " a Spaniard so ugly"
I think all the Apricot members should write a book with their personal memories/diary entries etc, Iād certainly buy it. The laughs, fights, sex, drugs and rock and roll of a
Game progject. Compeling stuff.
Thanks for your honest report, blengine, and thanks to you and the team members who didnāt leave for sticking it out and making something wonderful in the little time you had! After all, in addition to YoFrankie those happenings also brought us the awesome advancements to our beloved BGE, which I am very grateful for.
Wowā¦ hehe. No need to argue now huh? 
Ouch. But what do you really think Chris? 
Sucks that it all went down so bad, and hindsight is 20/20 blah blah, but I always feared the original apricot brief was too optimistic for the time-frame. Especially when checking out the crystalspace website; back then it looked half-finished with uninspiring screenshots and limited to no downloadable demos. Its barely improved now.
Its great that you reinvigorated the BGE, and found it a new niche as a fast way to prototype a game design. Lots of commercial engines have slick āin-gameā editors, but still rely on external 3d software to do completely new content, whereas BGE+blender is all in one. Nothing else can claim that.
As for performance, well, machines will always get faster, and again if it lets people prototype, once a publisher is found you can always go license one of the fancier engines and re-writeā¦ hell, thatād be the ideal way to get your blender->open source engine exporter working. Grab the latest open source engine from id, build a team and toolset around it, sell your game and give away the tools. It might just workā¦
Wow, the BGE went from unimportant when the project, to developing as a prototyping tool after Blengineās demo, to the engine that would deliver the final project.
I donāt blame the CS devs for being upset or angry, much like how us BGE users were kind of upset our preferred engine was initially planned to not be used. But it turns out the BGE may become much more popular because of the GLSL and other features, be prepared to see a bunch of new people in the BGE forums.
Blender will remain the only software that can make cool artwork and cool games without any external software.
Great blengine. I donāt know why, but I can imagine the Tonās face really well now.
To be true I think the goals for this project where set too high, from a CS point of view, but maybe thatās just my impression.
Integration of tools is really hard to achieve and that can be seen also in other softwares, not only Blender and CS.
I really believe that 2.5 will boost this side of the game too.
-Gian
PS: I saved your post cause itās the best making of for the DVD
PPS: Are weeklies included in the DVD, with all the fighting and Tonās faces ?
be prepared to see a bunch of new people in the BGE forums
I hope so cd. While the BGE still holds the spotlight after Apricot, nowās the time to keep the ball rolling, like with the new contest in the BGE forum, and GameKit 2. Also, Endi is really making an impact.
Are weeklies included in the DVD, with all the fighting and Tonās faces ?
Our weeklies were EPIC. Theyād last 2-3 hours on average and the failure to communicate was mystifying. Iām not talking about the kind of mental misfiring that leads a normal person to blank out occasionally and need something repeated. There was a permanent streak of oblivion running through the characters here. āHuh?ā seemed to be on every cue card.
I dreaded the meeting room. Quotes were thrown down there that still make me queasy, like āTon said Iām the most important person on the team!ā. I only wish we had a cam set up each week. The montage wouldāve went viral overnight. I wouldāve been rolling in my theoretical moneys. The widespread absurdities during this project, in and out of work, have given me enough table conversation to last a decade or more. Iāve gone psycho before over less. Coexisting meant choosing battles very carefully.
lol, thatās hilarious your characterizations are very pronounced and i especially liked the way your described ton, āputs hand on forhead mubles something to himselfā AND THATāS WHEN EVERYTHING CHANGED FOREVER or something like that
so actually Apricot is a 2 month project or something like that - even more impressive than a six month one!
lol āIām tonās favoriteā haha
Errr no, Iām pretty sure Iām Tons favorite, he emailed me the other week just to tell me.
SERIOUSLY :yes:
Hmm, this mixed with other funky (admin) stories from our beloved community would make for a great series.
I liked the indepth message about your findings, blengine.
/Nathan