yet another head & body

This is my first real project, and it’s far away from being finished. I need to fix a lot of errors. Especially the mouth and the nose bug me, but there also are other issues…
Any help/tip/hint would be appreciated :slight_smile:
http://drop.io/download/public/leng7thlfk0tikradbdp/a524102a60fa9da76afcb06b6c9e1c1c6df4b980/512acc60-6906-012c-cd30-f956ba819c8f/5a4dc930-6906-012c-83cf-f9fa6e77c577/v2/thumbnail_large
.blend

note, that the lighting isn’t ideal either, making especially the nose look worse than it is.

Thanks for insidesignz on deviantart who gave me the permission to use one of his most popular photos as a reference.
Also thanks to auroradreams, also on deviantart, for sharing nice stock images from which I used one.

I would have liked to see some other views of the head but here is my tips:

  • The bridge of the nose need some more form. Push the vertices around there more toward the inside and forward.
  • Check your cheekbones. They seem to be dropping a bit too low. Loo at a skeleton and you will see that the cheek is actually developed from the bony area under and to the left of the eyes.
  • The eyes are a bit strange but might do as more stylised and cartoon -like rather than realistic. They could be a bit too oval/almond shaped. But I’d have to see other sides as well.
  • You need to develop the bridge between the eyes a little more.
  • From what I can gather out of the render, the topology of the model seems to be fine. I’m just worried about the mouth area… but you are working on it so thats propably fine. :wink:
  • I think that the indent on the lip under the nose (dunno what you call it) is a little bit too wide.

All in all it’s not bad and I’m sure you are learning quite a bit from this! Just remember that the best tips for this project will come from watching people around you. Try to make a mental note of some of the physical characteristics - certain things are just universal. I remember how I studied peoples ears while I stood in cues or even at work. Rember that photos can really mess up a good model due to distortion. Compare your references to the real thing and then make a educated judgement.

Good luck and post again soon!

Oh, someone replied!
Sorry, I just saw it now. BA always cleans out the threads to be viewed…

So, here is a little update, with wires. You’ll see the bad geometry there. Thanks for the hints. I actually did some work on the nose, finished the lips (but they where ugly, so I removed them again - now you see a hole there, just as above, but wider^^) and generally reshaped the head and the eyes. It’s true, the eyes ARE too oval.
The perspective version looks far too narrow, somehow… probably, because of the double-distortion. I whish, there was an easy way to remove the perspective from images^^

The marked faces are all the tris in this model. Rather neglectable. The 3- and 5-jointed quad zones are rather the main problem with the topology…

Thanks a lot for those hints and sorry for the late reply ^^

.blend

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WOW,that looks just like ShnitzelKiller!!!

Please keep that over in the Off Topic threads :wink:

Yet another update.
Lips are done, geometry-wise.
In frontview they actually look more or less ok, but as you see in the sideview, they need serious reshaping… (actually, it’s also easily visible in the frontview render)

.blend

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I am puzzeled at how people still get head modeling wrong, don’t get me wrong its not the easiest thing to model. If you are noob I expect errors in form and proportion but topology heck no. I take this rather harsh line of view because this is worthout doubt the one area of CG where the are countless of very good tutorials written and in video form. The ratio of head tutorials versus other 3d tutorials is easliy 2:1, some required reading for you cgtalk, threedy, mr bomb and this is only the tip of the iceberg, google should reveal the rest of that iceberg.

going through any of those threads or tutorials and you would have modeled a head with half the faces you did which would have been easier to tweak into the correct form or shape.

kram1032,
opened your file, looks like you still have some work to do to follow the side view of the photo. Also, seems you should straighten up your front view of the photo so the eyes are level, since this will help you follow that view better as well.

I could see you are working mirror on the parts, tyrantmonkey has good points, glad to see you are trying, kram1032.

Gustav is giving you good advice, try to single out surface forms like ckeeks in simple terms, don’t let the subtle shapes give you surface form vertigo [loose your focus on shape comprehension]. The geometry on side of face was not that good in my opinion, looks like you started with a cube, that’s fine, however it has given you some areas that might be difficult to manipulate well. Looks like you dove head first in this project, maybe time to move back study a little and start again. Nothing like trying many different ways…! You could “retopo” this model and correct your geometry, again… tutorials will help you understand how gometry needs to follow form in 3d.

my suggestion would be that you actually pencil draw the subject a few times to help you get the feel of the form of the face. Even trace it, use thin paper over the photo on a window to see through the paper. This would be a good practice to help you get into thinking about the shape of the forms of the face. Young faces are the most difficult.

tutorials are the best place to start, however… in 3d you need perhaps stronger artistic intuition than as in traditional art. If you are new to drawing, think circular pencil movements when drawing figures. This will help train your senses of perception.

as a small note, I am currently working on cloths for a female figure using a combination of shrinkwrap, mirror, subsurf and retopo all at the same time. Turing retopo on and off as I need it and watching how the geometry follows the figure I am modeling on. Using proportional select on and off at times to work areas to make the stretch of cloth I want to happen. It helped a quick start of geometry as I rework the geometry to make it follow best. Using a simple cylinder to start, I was able to remove vertices and watch how the shrinkwrap worked against the form.

If you want a good starter geometry for faces? add cube, add subsurf modifier x2 levels and apply, add splitedge modifer leave default 30deg and apply. go into edit mode and select one of the sides, key-P to seperate it and now you have a good rounded set of faces. play with subsurf and even the degree in edgesplit. Gives a nice starter geometry. pull a center vertice using proportional and you have an instant nose with good geometry following.

I wish you much luck and hope you stay with your projects. This is my first post on this forum, hope I helped in some way. Sorry about writing so much, just needed to talk.

I know, it indeed looks like I’ve started from a cube. Infact, I didn’t xD
I just merged the loops oddly, it seems. VERY oddly.
And the sideview-photo actualy has a big problem: The mouth is open, and I had to “mentally” compensate the depth, the chin would go down. Probably I overdid that a bit…
And yeah, I’m new to drawing, more or less. Minor stuff in school^^
That makes it a lot harder, I guess.

Didn’t know, young faces are the hardest. Good to know. :slight_smile:

Thanks a lot for the hints, bachnoral and also thanks for the links, tryant monkey :slight_smile:

I found it interesting, that many details came “on their own”, without too much tweaking - actually, tweaking it added a lot of issues.
By now I fixed the lips a bit, but the corners of the mouth still need work.

I also tried to retopo this, but I found single vertices not to jump into place as expected… instead, some seemed to actually jump into the other direction. I’ll try so again, though. This mesh is pretty hard to work with and it got all wobbly by now… I’ll probably try to do it with that cube-side-trick, you mentioned :slight_smile:

P.S. tryant monkey:
What EVER I did before, I didn’t actually have to think about topology. Just had some reads without actually practicing, so I know, the topology is HORRIBLE, but I just didn’t get it fixed. Again, thanks for the links, I’ll try to apply the informations, I find there. :slight_smile:

No pic this time, as it’s just reshaped a bit and no real change.

kram1032,
you have to be facing a surface before clicking “retopo all” with retopo on. And turn off retopo when you want to move vertices, since they will snap to the surface instantly if you have retopo on.

use ortho views, front, side and top… to do most snapping, ctrl- with the associated numpad key gives you the other side. stay as close to perpendicular as you can and work a small amount of vertices at a time.

You can do this, it called box modeling though to do this in an easy manner it helps if your package has a good knife tool, ngons to be specific the kind of tools ngons allow you to have currently 2.49 has none of this though this is been worked on with bmesh.

My advise drop this particular head and start a new head, try and get better photos of your model I noticed that the front and side shots didn’t really match, this can add to your difficulties especially if you are just learning to model. Read a tutorial BEFORE you begin modeling you will model a head with fewer polygons and correct edgeloop. Trust me on the fewer polygons.

I know how to do retopo in theory, but a few of the verts - none on the border but rather some right in the middle - just stuck in place…

and I also know about box-modelling, tried that before, but just by those little non-serious tests I did with it (as well as the poly-by-poly-approach) gave me the feeling that I’m more comfortable with the poly-by-poly^^

Also, after viewing those tuts/looking at some of the posts, I came to the conclusion that it probably would be best to just start over again…

I tried to “fix” the open mouth now, by just rotating the jaw closed in 2D. Probably, the gap, resulting from that, is actually easier to cope with than the half-open mouth. (side view)
Indeed, the references generally aren’t the best, but I already searched a lot until I got at least those.
I want to go with a young boy head, because it’s a certain character, I had in mind. There will be several others - hopefully^^, for instance a quite old farmer.
Later, I also want to model a complete torso and even rig everything, but for now, I’ll stick to a “simple” head^^ This will probably be a quite long termish project and it could easily look “dead” for some time, but I’ll come back later. My vacations are over soon, school starts again and I’ve no idea how much time I’ll have for this then.

Right now, I still have time, but I slept over at friend’s houses, yesterday and today. I’ll probably have a tiny update tomorrow, just starting over again. :slight_smile:

Thanks a lot for all the help you two gave me so far.

Ok, so, later than I wanted, an update, or actually, a remake.
It’s WAY better now, but still, there are some points which need fixing, I guess… I have to further compensate the distortion of the reference images, especially the sideview. Right now, it kinda looks like an ape-ish face…

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update:
no geometry tweak, but I added volume to the cheeks (before, they where totally flat^^) and tweaked the colours a bit to make it more lively :slight_smile:

The sky looks a bit through around the eyes and also a tad in the middle of the mouth, where the lips touch each other… ^^

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The head is closed now, well, except for the gap for a hopefully soon to come ear…

any special advice here? I know, the geometry still isn’t quite the clearest, though, from 1400-something faces, I reduced to 305… I think, that’s a pretty nice drop :slight_smile:

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So, it’s time for ears.
I have to say, they are not the easiest to add… but I somehow managed to mostly keep quads. I did those ears according to a certain tutorial, where they actually used tris during the build… No idea if that’s the best way to do ears, but oh well…

At first, the ear looked good, but due to reshaping and trying it to fit on the head, things went odd. Also, if I place the ear exactly where I see it on the references, I can’t see it from the front. That’s why they stand away that strongly in orthographic mode… Any propper solution for that, looking less… wrong?

Also due to adding the ears, the whole head had to be reshaped and now looks kinda odd… - though, I also changed the camera angle a bit…

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good work on dropping the polycount I still feel things a little bit off with the topology, the biggest problems are with proportions and form, andrew loomis book on head drawing has some good propotion charts on the ideal proportions of a toddlers perharps you should use something like that to correct all the distortion that creep in when you model from photos.

That head looks really good and nice job for the polycount!

Thanks. Maybe it’s indeed time to actually purchase some anatomy books. 'till now, all the shaping came from the reference images with some (hopefully) corrections by hand, viewing it from different angles in perspective mode^^
School comes closer… As mentioned above, it could be, that this thread becomes near-dead soon, due to that…

NovaSinX, thanks for the compliment :slight_smile:

I wish I could have back the overall face shape of the version, three posts earlier. That was about the best it got. After that, closing the head obscured things and adding ears made it even worse :S
Oh well^^

YAY! Here we go!
Still not perfect I guess, but WAY better than my former try. :slight_smile:
(This is a total remake :slight_smile: )


here’s the blend (~3MB):
.blend

Still, the ears can’t be seen from front view… and the mesh probably generally needs some reshaping… Anything you see at first or second glance? :slight_smile:

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