Your Votes Don't Count America!

Yep that’s right, I know I’ll get a lot of flames for this though.
THe media and government has drilled it into our heads that You Vote Counts and It’s Your Duty As An American To Vote, and of course who can forgets Snoop Dogs Vote Or Die campain, lol, I bet he has’nt ever voted in his whole life. They want you to vote sooo badly. Why? If it’s a fact, then why tell us so freakin much and even make a movie about it (Swing Vote)! I think it’s because it really doesn’t count, but they want us to think it does cause it makes us feel like we are the ones who elected this or that person, it’s meant to appease us, to convince us that we were the ones wanting to go to war, that we were the ones who voted for this or that, when in fact we didn’t choose anything, they did and they are lying to us and telling us the we are in charge when in fact it’s not true at all.

This is a link to an article where DieBold (a voting machine company) admits that there machines have errors that can drastically change the outcome of an election:

>>>LINK<<<

And here is an hour and a half long video about the fact that the elections are rigged, it’s not some mock up or anything, this is a real documentary:

>>>LINK<<<

It’s true folks, I’ve known this for a really long time, just read and watch the info I posted, your eye’s will be opened.

-Jimmy

More power to you, Jack. This year I’m exercising my right NOT to vote! I’m not going to vote for the lesser of two evils simply for the sake of voting. The politicians will do whatever the heck they want once they get into office anyway, even if they sounded good at first.


Cyborg Dragon, you should know better than to ask who people might prefer as president. Not only is it against our forum rules, but you may recall you’re not even supposed to talk about it in real life, hence the privacy of voting booths. -PP

Saw Hacking democracy a while back, quite an eye opener.

I really think they should bring back paper ballots. For (hopefully) obvious reasons.

Jackblack, you need to stop drinking, it makes you very angry and crazy.

Loved you in School of Rock btw.

Peace.

Well you could refrase that like my friend Chris Ballard did, “Would I vote for a Marxist or a Liberal?”.

I would honestly vote for Ron Paul, he had some of the best ideas, these goofball canadates don’t want to do anything new then what has been going on for the past 8 or more years, it doesn’t matter who’s in office, they will do whatever they’re told to do by the higher ups. The people don’t have a voice, my voice is the fact that I’m making a stand not to vote for either one of those clowns, I don’t have to, I’m not sucked in to the brainwashing by the media.

-Jimmy

Lol, and ya know, the funny thing is, I have a imunity deficiency to alcohol, I can’t metabolize it, so just a tiny little bit makes me vomit so much I start to cough up blood becaue the acid in the vomit starts to eat away at my asophogus.

-Jimmy

Actually, the best reason that you actually vote in a Democratic Republic is to push the Tyranny/Democracy meter a little tiny bit in the Democracy direction. Not voting pushes it in the other direction, albeit a very very small measure. But do you really want to push it that way, even in the slightest?

On the other hand, free balloting lends legitimacy to the winner and the system in general, so if your goal is to de-legitimize the authority of the government, then not voting is a good start.

Removed, decided it was flame bait.

No my friend.You have been brainwashed by something far worse.

KNOWLEDGE

That scourge, that plague, that growing sickness… Digging its way deep into your brain. It’s 10,000 years too soon, my friend, and thus, your sickness must go…

MUHUHAAhAHAhaHAhAH

On a less insane note: The electoral college BS is proof enough of wasted votes. How is it democracy when one state has more say than another?

“My vote doesn’t count, so I’ll prove I am above the media’s propaganda and make sure it doesn’t, by not voting.”
That is what I’m getting out of your posts, am I wrong? there is a little sarcasm with that statement, but I think it should show a valid logical point. which Harkyman pointed out already.

I haven’t looked into this myself much, so I can’t comment on whether or not your vote really counts for anything, but I guess I’m starting to look into this as of now.

Jackblack, who is “They” that you put in bold type twice?

If the voting machines are rigged or faulty, how can we fix that? [email protected] said paper ballots. What can we do to bring those back in?

I’m sorry I didn’t actually watch the video, but if the elections are rigged and we actually don’t have any power over who gets elected. what can we do to get them fixed?

In science we don’t usually reject something until we find something that would work better, even if only in theory. I would say come up with a fix to the problems you see and then act on spreading the word and following through with it. am I wrong?

~Atemp

PS. I really don’t like talking in these political discussions as they rarely have any long term benefit to any people involved, but if someone wants to talk privately I am much more willing to talk as I think that is more likely to be productive. even still I may jump ship on this if it gets out of hand.

Lol, and ya know, the funny thing is, I have a imunity deficiency to alcohol, I can’t metabolize it, so just a tiny little bit makes me vomit so much I start to cough up blood becaue the acid in the vomit starts to eat away at my asophogus.

-Jimmy
Ha! What a coincidence, right? Sorry bud, I’m not feeling bad for you(though I feel bad that you have such a terrible sense of humor), I’ll be honest.

I may think you’re wack, you gotta get over it. Not everyone is gonna believe all the same stuff you do.

But here, I’ll pretend for a second… ITS THE END OF DAYS! We can’t even pick which liar gets elected to do that one thing…

If the voting machines are rigged or faulty, how can we fix that? [email protected] said paper ballots. What can we do to bring those back in?
well, I might be slightly off in my recollection of Hacking democracy, but the most vivid scene for me was when they showed you how you can change the result of an election as easily as changing a couple of numbers in a spreadsheet. Literally done in about 30 seconds, and no paper trail. Job done.

Of course, paper ballots aren’t exactly perfect either, but there would at least be a paper trail, which is better than a number on a computer screen.

And I have no idea what you’d need to do to bring those back in :slight_smile:

I will only vote if Ron Paul is on the ballot. If he’s not, I will ask for a paper ballot and write it in.

He’s the only one of them who sounds sane to me. Dennis Kucinich (the guy who introduced Articles of Impeachment for the warcrimes of George Bush) would also be a great candidate.

My ideal election would be Ron Paul vs. Dennis Kucinich.

If you abstain from voting, your vote really means nothing. However, if you hand in a spoiled vote, your vote gets counted, though it does not go towards either candidate. It shows that you’re not happy with either candidate, which is important, of course, if you’re not actually happy with either of them.

Anyway, Jackblack is correct, your votes don’t count for much. How else could George W have won the first election, with the minority vote. I’m not pointing finger at the US only, as I ive in an even more fcdup democracy myself. In todays world, elections have become a very convenient manipulation tool for politicians to use.

You could vote for Bob Barr, Nader, Chuck Baldwin or about ten other people, depending on your state. One of them must be a better candidate for you than Obama or McCain.

just an overview. go find your candidate.

EDIT: As far as the documentary, I’ll watch it. I think one thing that people will scrutinize a lot in this election will be the exit polls. The Ohio exit polls were pretty far off on the last election, and it turns out that there was some shady activity going on there. The media - in all honesty - just can’t ignore the numbers if they’re that far off. Whe I’m hoping for is a complete and utter lack of exit poll votes for McCain. I honestly couldn’t care less which of the three major candidates wins (I count Barr as a major candidate as he has 11% of the polls right now - not bad for a third party candidate), so long as it’s not McCain. I’d rather see Obama - a man who’s economic policy is pretty much the exact opposite of my ideal - than McCain as the president.

On a side note, have you guys heard the reports from Denver about those guys they found with weapons and supposedly one of them brought up Obama after they were arrested. They’re speculating that they may have been planning an assassination attempt, tho I think it might just be a bit sensationalized…

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=98343&catid=188

I don’t want to start debating on wether to vote or not but I think voting machines are bad for a simple reason:Transparency.

The problem is very simple: how do you check if a machine voted correctly without giving away the secret in voting and how do you make sure that even technically illiterate people can use them?
And the part that is most important how do you make sure that anybody can check that the voting process is performed correctly?

The short answer you can’T. Not even if you are a programmer and you know how the machine works would you be able to say that the machine voted correctly! The only way to make sure that the machine voted correctly is to give out a voting voucher stating your vote which is then collected afterwards. This of course makes the machine obsolete.
Now with paper ballots anybody can go to the voting office and look at the urn used to collect the ballots. There is no hidden agenda, no secrets just papers dropped into a box. You can even go up to the box and pick it up to see that there is no hidden floor etc… It is simple and can be controlled by anybody who is able to use a pencil.
After the voting is done anybody who can count can open the box and actually count out the vote. Not so with machines. There is no transparency as there are no physical objects anybody can actually grasp.
I’d say paperballots are the only way to go not because they are foolproof or cannot be tampered with no it is because it is the only system which can be checked by anybody and is fairly easy to control. All it takes is time and careful observation.
I know for sure that if they ever introduce voting machines in my district I’ll refuse to vote unless given a paper ballot.

DO NOT USE MACHINES for the most important and most basic process in a democratic society.

EDITED: There was a nice demonstration a couple of years back by the Chaos Computer Club in Netherlands where they actually showd in a live video how to hack a voting machine in less then 30seconds. I think they played chess on it. This was after the company producing the machine stated that hacking the machine is impossible.
The thing that disturbs me the most about it is that the German government claims that the machines are still save even though the video clearly shows it not to be. The only proof they give is that they say the machines are not publicly accessible (that is until they are setup for voting)

The Netherlands recalled the voting machines due to this inability to recount votes if the machine fails… and because there was an issue with anonymity as the machine’s input could be sniffed out due to electronic leaks from the keyboards.

Back to pen and paper it is.

Also: there was a site on the internet about thinking up a way to get something better than democracy using modern tech… but inevitably using it means direct loss of privacy… leading to the thought that first we need to be able to truly voice our ideas and opinions… even in the west… seems we’re not that free after all, because we’re still afraid to discuss and stand our ground.

As stated above I do not think that there is a technical way of making sure that votes are secret, transparent and controllable for anybody able to vote.

How does paper helps? Do you know who the other people voted for? No. Someone can exchange the ballot at the counting process for another one and there it is… a fraud.

Over here we have electronic voting for 12 years now. The ballots are designed by public universities, by several of them. They are only produced by this or that company.
The software has its source open for public entities and political parties. Vulnerability tests are performed and the results are made public for everyone.
Until a month before the election they are open for modifications, in case someone proves it is necessary…

Some ballots are randomly picked from the ones to be distributed all over the place and they are tested by the scientific community, political parties, etc.
The votes are stored, encrypted, on a disk, a flash memory and some other media I don’t recall.
The key for encrypting/decrypting the votes are created in official ceremonies.
For counting the votes, they are taken from each ballot for the local Tribunal Eleitoral (something like Election Tribunal), are summed up, and are transmitted, cyphered, to the capital. And all this process is transmited live on TV, under supervision of computer scientists, politicians, international observers, etc. The cyphering process can also be tested by scientists, political parties, etc. If someone doubts about this transmission, the ballots are still there and the votes can be counted directly from them.

Even though many people say they can fraud the elections, this does not happens ANYMORE, not after using the electronic voting for 12 years. There may be errors in some other parts of the political process, but not on the voting.
And it is not because of “the conspiracy”. Powerful politicians that were in power at the times this system started to be used were removed from power by this same system. We elected an ex-shoe-shining boy as president. People wanted him, despite of what the higher levels of society wanted. If the system was so easy to fraud, he wouldn’t have got elected.

The problem is not the voting system.
The problem is making it transparent.
You can still use paper, but if the counting is not transparent, there is no good in that also.

The problem is that some people always had their “liberty and freedom”. Whatever that is supposed to be. US people learn that America is the land of freedom, democracy, and they just believe that.

Over here we lost our democracy for a quarter of a century. People were murdered by the government. People had to rebel, be arrested, expeled from the country, get shot by the military, so we could have a voice once again.
I live on a crappy country, but at least, because of fear that the past could once again happen, we learned how to make the elections transparent.

So… the problem is not in the mechanism, but in the people that make it work.