5 steps to end poverty and elevate mankind

Are you talking about all laws or just some laws? Would you even say that such laws such as not being allowed to murder are merely based on beliefs (I guess the members of the animal kingdom kill each other all the time without repercussion so why should we feel to be above that)? Some people might take that argument in agreement and argue that human society is on the brink because it has too much differentiation from nature, perhaps they might even believe that it is wrong for people to function at a level that is above the animals (so the sophistication of human society has to be reduced).

That is why multiple groups work on the same things. The problem is when politics comes to science.Another thing: do you really think because science cannot answer all the questions in a sec we should go with a system what does not give a crap on facts, because the mass doesn’t like facts?

Again, who controls what defines what a fact is and who is to control what science must conclude on in order to be considered sound? Would something by any chance have to be universally agreed on by a certain elite group of ‘thinkers’ in order to be considered scientifically correct? I don’t see how you can perfectly separate science from personal and political bias because even scientists have their own views on concepts such as right and wrong (not to mention they are not all in lockstep with each other and likewise have diverse beliefs about the world).

'Are you talking about all laws or just some laws? ’

Not all laws, but most of the laws.

'Would you even say that such laws such as not being allowed to murder are merely based on beliefs (I guess the members of the animal kingdom kill each other all the time without repercussion so why should we feel to be above that)? ’

No, this law is based on self-interest (as I agree with punishing killers as it improve my chances not to be killed) , but yes, it also has a religious background in the Western civilization (fake Christianity).
But at it’s core it is based on the fact that originally society punish killing inside the society. Historically killing outsiders was rewarded.
So there is nothing about ‘good’ in this.

‘Some people argue that human society is on the brink because it is too artificial and distant from nature, perhaps they might even believe that it is wrong for people to function at a level that is above the animals (so the sophistication of human society has to be reduced).’

I think that people have brain what gives them power over the nature; they should use this organ more in their daily decisions, even if it costs time and energy.

‘Again, who controls what defines what a fact is and who is to control what science must conclude on in order to be considered sound?’

Bakerman bakes bread, heart-surgeant operates patients.Who controls now who is a bakerman and who is a heart-surgeont? Is there a kind of ‘system’ for that?Who controls the way they have to work? Is there a system for that?

‘Would something by any chance have to be universally agreed on by a certain elite group of ‘thinkers’ in order to be considered scientifically correct?’

Now you have some elite capitalists, populist s…head politicians without moral and knowledge how to control the world and the society.I choose specialists. I don’t want the bakerman do the heart-surgeon’s work.

‘I don’t see how you can perfectly separate science from personal and political bias because even scientists have their own views on concepts such as right and wrong (not to mention they are not all in lockstep with each other and likewise have diverse beliefs about the world’

That is why having multiple groups is important. Facts are facts, proofs are proofs; the problem is that the current system uses facts occasionally.

‘a[I]nd likewise have diverse beliefs about the world’

[/I]That is why competency is important and profession-related.There is one science; we should use our current and proved knowledge for the society, instead of basing systems on mumbo-jumbos and misbeliefs.

So you say that laws prohibiting murder are not moral in nature and the whole concept of that boils down to self-interest.

Using that logic, one can say that one can be justified to kill a friend or a neighbor (without any consequence) because he is either perceived as worthless to society or is a danger to it (if only this scientifically correct world order takes control). Based on your previous posts, I can kind of get the idea that you might be thinking that anything is justifiable if it serves to ‘elevate’ human society (such as creating a caste system where freedoms and rights depend on IQ level).

Extending on that, I do wonder if you have any opinion on eugenics, because some in the past had the opinion that in order to fight poverty and elevate humanity, then we must either remove or at least marginalize anyone from society perceived as having ‘incorrect’ genetics.


Bakerman bakes bread, heart-surgeant operates patients.Who controls now who is a bakerman and who is a heart-surgeont? Is there a kind of ‘system’ for that?Who controls the way they have to work? Is there a system for that?

I’m not sure where you get that from, as the definition of career titles are well known and do not give much in the way of room for any kind of subjective opinion. Meanwhile, what people define and perceive as a ‘fact’ can very much be impacted by what they believe is true about the world and society in general. For instance, the two of us would diverge greatly in terms of what the facts are, the requirements a person must meet to be seen as factual, the requirements a society must meet to be seen as based on those facts, and the commands the world must follow to elevate society to a higher level.

'Are you talking about all laws or just some laws? ’

Not all laws, but most of the laws.

Unfortunately, by making such sweeping statements, you type-cast “several thousand(!) years’ worth of your fellow men and women” as either being: (a) total idiots, and/or (b) insufferable, self-serving a*sholes who “somehow got away with it.”

:ba:

Unfortunately, the reality of human society is that "(at least, some of us …) are trying to ‘better ourselves,’ in spite of(!) ourselves. And then, we’re trying to apply those laws to constantly-changing “actual(!!) human situations.”

If you think that such things are easy, try volunteering for a position on the homeowner’s association in your community (if you are mis-fortunate enough to actually have one …). Join the PTA at your kid’s school. Run for Mayor in your town. You will find out real quick(!!!) that “there are no absolutes!”

And you will also discover that:

“This is, purposefully, how it has been arranged to be.”

These are, deliberately, 'the rules of engagement(!!!) … make of them what you can.”

Social change is not for sissies . . . nor, particularly, for idealists.

In tribal, hunter gatherer societies people are not all equal. There is a natural distribution of favorable qualities that endows some more than others. For this reason, it is perfectly normal and natural for the average to invest in the strength of those naturally endowed. That is… well… was the engine of leadership. Since the advent of the monetary system all that is required is that one be born to a fortunate family. This has stripped humanity of the true value of leadership. The concentration on wealth as opposed to more useful qualities in a naturalistic sense has made society dangerously incoherent.

The history that we have for argumentation began after the advent of monetary economics. All of these arguments about, “humans have never…____”, are not based in any kind of evidence. The economic system that we have today produces the same human impulses that the ones in Ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome did. That is inconvenient but factual.

Poverty is not the problem that most people are concerned about. Tribal societies can all be considered impoverished. The difference between what is arguably our true nature and the current condition is disparity. The amount of disparity in tribal cultures revolves around dress and not basic necessities. Leaders are distinguished by their physical appearance alone. The rest of the members of the tribes often have had a similar quality of life. This is information from first contacts. Many of the tribes existing today have picked up many of the bad habits from “civilized” society.

This doesn’t mean that if humans were living in a manner that is closer to our nature that there wouldn’t be jacked up problems. For instance, some tribal societies that haven’t been westernized have accepted practices like, un-provoked murder, leaving babies with birth defects to the scavengers in the forest, rape, incest, forced marriage, cannibalism, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, ritual torture of young boys etc. etc. etc…

The truth is, we have made a great deal of change; and there will likely be a great deal more. Many of the issues that we face today are due to an ancient economic system. This appears to be one of the things that are changing. One of the most concerning problems that has come from currency systems is slavery. Though it was made illegal in the 1800s in the US and other nations followed that lead to make it generally illegal, it still exists in a comparable percentage of the population around the globe. This is because currency systems make it profitable. Now it is called human trafficking. It isn’t general absolution from guilt that is the problem with slavery. It is just inhumane; plain and simple. This economic paradigm has issues that are just unacceptable.

This isn’t why it’s going to become obsolete though. That is going to happen because of the rapid pace of technological advancement. Ancient economic systems are just too simple for a future of immense populations with vast resources for upward mobility. We made more progress in the past 100 years than we did in the previous 1,000. Now advancement is coming so quickly that it makes most people uncomfortable. It’s happening too fast for humans. That’s why so many people are uncomfortable right now. That’s where a large number of the arguments are coming from; as opposed to from factual information.

@Ace

‘So you say that laws prohibiting murder are not moral in nature and the whole concept of that boils down to self-interest.’

The origin of the law is self-interest and for most of the people it is self-interest, not ethic. Just take a look when a society fall apart because of a crisis like ethnic tensions, war: self-interest start to work again, but results the opposite: the so-called right of self-defense by any tools. Or just think about laws let you defend your property by lethal force: in what ‘ethic’ a property worth more than a life?

It is almost pure self-interest at the end. Same reason we send soldiers to foreign countries to kill other people.

‘Using that logic, one can say that one can be justified to kill a friend or a neighbor (without any consequence) because he is either perceived as worthless to society or is a danger to it (if only this scientifically correct world order takes control).’

It is funny some way that people always get to these results with fearing alternative futures and not fearing (accepting) the current system:))))

The facts: you could kill your neighbor if he/she is a threat to society without punishment, if the threat fulfills some criteria. It is accepted by the people, by the community. In typical societies there is a separate group of specialists for that called police, what involves specialists (trained gun-experts, psychologists, etc.) to do that job instead of you, but you as a citizen could do that if they are not around and the laws justify your act.

Of course this act could not be justifiable when someone is simple worthless (this is where we could use moral, but not without forgetting our limits). In this case - depending on the situation and the cultures we examine the case - there are many practices, depending on the local definition of worthless, the local moral and the level of poverty. If a society is not balanced related to the resources it need, it will collapse. Simple.

‘Based on your previous posts, I can kind of get the idea that you might be thinking that anything is justifiable if it serves to ‘elevate’ human society (such as creating a caste system where freedoms and rights depend on IQ level).’

I never said that, but:The current system has castes by wealth. Even funnier :(, people born to these castes and for the most of them they don’t have a chance to change castes. So we live in a system what separates people by a factor which has nothing to do with real values.Also, we live a system where the mentally retarded does not have the right to vote (as an example), live under conservatorship and you support it (me, too).

So you do not have the problem with limitations by IQ at all. :slight_smile:

What I say:

  1. limitations by competence (which means both IQ and profession/knowledge-related limitations like bakermen has right to vote about how to make bread, but limited (weighted) right to decide how to perform a heart-surgery). Also heart-surgeons do not have the right about how to break bread if they do not have a competence.
    ‘I’m not sure where you get that from, as the definition of career titles are well known and do not give much in the way of room for any kind of subjective opinion.’

Career titles (and the status they offer) depend on IQ, the level of education and accessibility (not involving the distortion by some paid education which results idiots with degrees).Careers depend heavily on social relations.This is the current system.

‘Meanwhile, what people define and perceive as a ‘fact’ can very much be impacted by what they believe is true about the world and society in general. For instance, the two of us would diverge greatly in terms of what the facts are, the requirements a person must meet to be seen as factual, the requirements a society must meet to be seen as based on those facts, and the commands the world must follow to elevate society to a higher level.’

Technically facts are facts an ‘data’ side. What could make differences is the explanation of the data, which could be raised to fact level with scientific methods.

‘Unfortunately, by making such sweeping statements, you type-cast "several thousand(!) years’ worth of your fellow men and women" as either being: (a) total idiots, and/or (b) insufferable, self-serving a*sholes who "somehow got away with it.’

Yes, history proves it.

‘Unfortunately, the reality of human society is that "(at least, some of us …) are trying to ‘better ourselves,’ in spite of(!) ourselves. And then, we’re trying to apply those laws to constantly-changing "actual(!!) human situations.’

And here you just justified my former point. This is the key: at least, some of us’. No good comes from the mass, exceptional people make the changes with outstanding skills.

‘If you think that such things are easy, try volunteering for a position on the homeowner’s association in your community (if you are mis-fortunate enough to actually have one …). Join the PTA at your kid’s school. Run for Mayor in your town. You will find out real quick(!!!) that "there are no absolutes!’

I probably spent more time with this kind of work around the globe than the average citizens ( and probably you) and I found that absoluties determine everything.

And you will also discover that:
Social change is not for sissies . . . nor, particularly, for idealists.

Which is true.

I’m not so optimistic about the future (nor experts). We are clearly heading for a fall without rethinking our actions; also mass could not adapt quickly enough for avoiding the fall.

The truth is, you write nonsense… and again you have no clue what equality means. ie. Equality before the law.
Double standards are the norm in corrupt governments.
And NO, in 20 years a human cannot & does not evolve!
You really write bunch of ignorant self produced brain farts.

Yes, you proven the fact.

there you go…

Yep, equality in common speech changed its meaning, while technically it should mean equality before the law (which is not the reality unfortunately, but an understandable and supportable need) .
Equality in skills, wealth, etc. never existed and possibly never will, whatever our misguided press or PC speech says as human beings are not clones of a single entity.

:)))) To be honest, most of these debate was based on guessing/beliefs, where people was trying to analyze what I think instead of what I say, based on former conversations they had. :slight_smile:

And yes, it has popcorn potential, but I try to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings, except when it is hurt by facts.

So theoretically, you would find it okay if a person with undesirable beliefs or opinions was dragged in front of a sort of death-panel, and then shot on sight if the community present gave him the thumbs down (because he was perceived as a threat not necessarily to life and property, but perhaps simply perceived as a threat to societal progress).

So what would happen if you were that person because someone didn’t like what you were writing on online forums, would you change your tune then and figure that sending someone to his death via popular opinion is wrong?

Ace, you are smart and we have a connection here which is respectful. Please reread what I wrote and try to argue and state things what I really said, not what you think I say. If it is because of my bad English, then sorry, it is the 3rd language I learned, it is not my mother tongue.
I stated about our current system that it supports killing people if they matches some criteria against community. I didn’t defined this criterias related to my thoughts on how things should work. I wanted to point on the fact that people accept killing based on cultural effects. Technically most of the people accept everything as a norm as they does not examine how rational these norms are.

In the USA it could be normal to shoot a thief in your house, in other countries it is a simple murder. It is cultural and again, moral has nothing to do about good and bad, it is about culture. What could be about good or bad is examining real things, not fake beliefs.

Let me to say differently: there are no moral differences between people follow blindly laws and their cultural expectations, whatever that law or culture is.

Another thing:

‘if a person with undesirable beliefs or opinions was dragged in front of a sort of death-panel, and then shot on sight if the community present gave him the thumbs down’

Correct me if I’m wrong but in many countries - USA is there, too - people could be executed for various reasons, for example treason.
Could it be justified?

It has little to do with optimism. Humans do not drive the future with their will. Humans respond to environmental stimuli in predictable ways.

The “experts” are taking a Bayesian account of what is statistically likely due to the central dogma of Philosophy of Science began by Karl Popper. Though this has an acceptable degree of predictive value, it’s not based upon explicit data points.

Philosophy of Science and Epistemology are not the same thing. Bayesian statistical analysis, though extremely useful cannot impose predictive value like explicit data.

These “experts” are not behavioral scientists; such as Psychologists, Behavioral Biologists and Sociologists. Most of them are Physicists, Climatologists and Mathematicians; thus having little to no understanding of individual and social drivers. <– The source of explicit data.

In a nut shell, hard times bring significant change. The data and the trends support this occurring now. There really is no evidence to support cynicism.

In the USA, you only get sentenced to death if you perform an especially heinous crime. In other cases, the only reason you could legally get killed on the spot is if you posed an imminent threat to someone’s life (due to pointing a gun at someone or charging at a police officer).

Over here, you can curse the country all you want and even burn the flag (because both of them are considered free speech). That doesn’t mean you won’t gain a sort of stigma associated with you, but you wouldn’t wind up dead.


It has little to do with optimism. Humans do not drive the future with their will. Humans respond to environmental stimuli in predictable ways.

Considering that this chestnut is the cornerstone of pretty much every argument you have made on these forums, why would you even be concerned about choices and where society is headed at all (if you can’t control it due to being a purely reactionary vessel then there’s no possibility of you being able to put a stop to that direction or choice or even make changes to it)?

Your arguments are worthless then (and these discussions are worthless), because the future is already set in stone and there’s nothing you can do about it.

@Ace:

Considering that this chestnut is the cornerstone of pretty much every argument you have made on these forums, why would you even be concerned about choices and where society is headed at all (if you can’t control it due to being a purely reactionary vessel then there’s no possibility of you being able to put a stop to that direction or choice or even make changes to it)?

Your arguments are worthless then (and these discussions are worthless), because the future is already set in stone and there’s nothing you can do about it.

The context of that statement is obvious when considering what it was a response to. Set in stone is how you feel about what you think it means; and not what it actually means.

Most of human behavior is pretty predictable. Environmental factors result in certain types of behaviors. That doesn’t mean that your life has been planned in a deterministic way. It just means that you have behaviors that you cannot control. Not because of lack of self control but because your frontal lobes don’t pay attention to certain aspects of your life. Carl Jung referred to it as the shadow. This is called heuristics; and it is a good thing, in that it is an efficiency under normative conditions.

You can’t really even take credit for the “choices” that you make because someone taught you how to make choices. Such things and blame are the reason that this notion of incentives is the default route to solutions even though the overwhelming tendency is failure.

When times get tough people will change their behaviors out of nothing but self interest. That is the most probable outcome.

I didn’t define what fall will be come. What we know and it is based on facts that the world is far overpopulated, we need more and more energy year by year, we have global warming, radical religion is spreading across the world, still the most of the human kind have no access to lifestyle we have in developed countries and if they had, things just would go worse. In the developed countries people started questioning the results of science (like vaccines - result: new outbreaks start in different, very developed locations, fear from nuclear energy - result: more death from fossils, more CO2, unstable power grids). Chine is rising, Russia is rising again, USA started to lose power, Europe is impotent as always, thanks to its fake liberalism. In optimal case we will have a new cold war and loosing some of the resources could be used for making things better (as human kind).

From similar factors we had serious wars in the past; today only nuclear weaponry holds nations back, the question is until when.
No one has the guts to say that that the world as we live it is simple unstable like hell.

Of course it is not pure data and no one predicts the future. But behind these processes there is the data and even if models have limitations, we have no reason to be optimistic.

‘These “experts” are not behavioral scientists; such as Psychologists, Behavioral Biologists and Sociologists. Most of them are Physicists, Climatologists and Mathematicians; thus having little to no understanding of individual and social drivers. <– The source of explicit data.’

Some areas has explicit data, some areas could not have, just probabilities and it is not affected what kind of scientist examine it.Also the relevant science includes various areas of knowledge as fusion of areas.

‘In a nut shell, hard times bring significant change.’

No doubt, but there are different directions for change. And as we learned that human kind as a mass never learns, I doubt changes will happen in a constructive way, it is more probable that we will loose some good part of ourselves like tolerance and instead of understanding we are the same race, nationalism will spread like hell (technically it is proven by facts, see migrant crisis in Europe).The data and the trends support this occurring now. There really is no evidence to support cynicism.Actually we have only evidence that things will get worse.

“In the USA, you only get sentenced to death if you perform an especially heinous crime. In other cases, the only reason you could legally get killed on the spot is if you posed an imminent threat to someone’s life (due to pointing a gun at someone or charging at a police officer).”

Justifiable homicides?

“Over here, you can curse the country all you want and even burn the flag (because both of them are considered free speech). That doesn’t mean you won’t gain a sort of stigma associated with you, but you wouldn’t wind up dead.”

That is good, so Snowden will just spend decades is prison if captured. By the way, treason could be sentenced with death penalty.But again, it was an example that moral is independent from absolute terms, it is a subjective, historical system what became the base of the laws in societies.