3Dstudio v9 - the file convertor (*resolved* - thank you).

General Forums Blender and CG Discussions
1

This is about why proprietary formats should be avoided in OSS. And this certainly isn’t a situation I am particularly happy about. It is a very strange situation I would be so grateful if someone could help me out of.

It goes like this.

Currently I am working on a personal project for my own satisfaction. It is a big project and I am quite serious about getting it done. When it is finished I will post it on blenderartists for all to see.

In this project NPR rendering will be used in a black and white style. Primarily this is because attempted photorealism would simply cost too much time for the shear volume of images I am attempting to create. Secondly, it means less time playing around with materials and shaders for colours etc. I know what I want to achieve in terms of style and I was convinced I could do it all with open source software.

I am a firm believer in Open Source. Once there was a time when I had all of those big, bulky programs you all know about (ripped and cracked) on my computer. 3DStudio, Lightwave, Maya and so on. It was kinda like an addiction - looking for the tool that turns ideas into my head into stunning images without any effort. A tool that doesn’t exist.

Since I discovered Blender, I came to the conclusion that anything you can do with proprietary software can be done (with a little extra effort) with free tools. Today that belief has been shaken.

As I said it this is a big project. I needed humanoid figures and I reluctantly downloaded a free copy of Poser when it was available hoping I wouldn’t have to use it. Thankfully the new version of Makehuman came out just in time to save me. It seemed all the content I was planning to make could be made with OSS only (all my content will be made public domain btw).

Then I discovered freestyle (http://freestyle.sourceforge.net/). Like many open projects it is unique and in an alpha stage of development. The more I looked at it, the more it became clear that it could enable me to create images of a style I wanted.

After generating a couple of images from freestyle using the provided example .3ds files, I wanted to see what I could do with my Blender models. At which point I discovered that Blender’s .3ds export (or freestyle’s .3ds import depending on your point of view) failed.

Confident I could get it working, I made a couple of posts and a new thread here on Blenderartists. There were tantalising clues that Blender export could work but no one could help me. The links to the builds that were supposed to work were long dead. I even PMed a couple of people. No success. Days passed and hope turned to frustration.

Perhaps I could use another program to generate .3ds? This would lengthen my workflow which seemed unfortunate but it could be a solution. Nothing worked. I tried Wings3D, OpenFX, Crossroads, Meshlab…you name it I tried it. Opening one of the provided .3ds files that worked with freestyle and immediately saving it out broke the functionality. Very strange.

Starting to think that freestyle was broken, I downloaded a couple of free .3ds models off the net. They worked! Something was very fishy was going on and I couldn’t understand it. It started to seem that freestyle would only work with .3ds files out of Max itself.

At which point a friend offered his computer to help. No luck there using Blender. He enthusiastically downloaded the demo of 3Dstudio 9 giving fake details on the download form. He installed it and hey presto! freestyle works again!

So now I have to use a 30-day demo of 3Dstudio to work on my project - using 3Dstudio as an over elaborate file convertor. This sucks!

Worse, I will need to format my computer and reinstall the demo as I progress once the 30-day trial expires. I’m not sure this is even legal and I certainly can no longer claim that my project was done using 100% OSS (except for windows).

Perhaps it is the “fault” of freestyle for using proprietary .3ds format (and being picky about it). Perhaps it is the fault of Blender for having an imperfect .3ds export. It doesn’t matter whose “fault it is” - all I know is now I have to use Max and that there wouldn’t be a problem if there was a popular, simple and open standard for 3D models. It beggars belief that a file format could behave so unpredictably!

Now I am hoping 3Dstudio doesn’t start luring me away from Blender. 3Dstudio file converter.

This has all been rather disappointing having used nothing but OSS for the past five years.

Koba

P.S> If someone can help me resolve this problem, I’ll gladly uninstall Max and get on with my work!

2

nobody’s holding a gun to your head to use blender. basically you’re pissed because nobody solved your problems for you?

::::rolls eyes:::::

3

Don’t despair!

You’re not the only one that’s hopeful to see more friendly interaction between freestyle and blender. I’m still hoping that they’re still interested in integrating with blender, like they told me at Siggraph.

My recommen… hold on. What’s you’re timeline for completing your project?

I would recommend that you stick with Blender. Rendering is the last step in the process. And, while I know the importance of testing ahead of time, you have time to wait for improvements. If the rest of your toolchain is OSS and works for you now, then use that. Then, once you’re ready to do your final rendering output, perhaps improvement will have been done on either the 3ds exporter or even on the freestyle/blender interaction. Use our fast development time to your advantage.

That’s just my recommendation, though.

4

How about rendering your movie with simple textures and doing the NPR effect post pro with some other video editing or 2D software? Would that be possible?

5

I recently had some problems importing .3ds files into an app that uses lib3ds, freestyle is using the same library. Some code in the Blender exporter was disabled with the comment that it crashed 3ds max. After uncommenting this code I was able to import the model. Enable all code with “COMMENTED OUT FOR 2.42 RELEASE!! CRASHES 3DS MAX” in .blender/scripts/3ds_export.py, and things should work again.

You could have reported a bug in the Blender bug tracker or contacted the author of the 3ds exporter, that’s one of those advantages of OSS :).

6

I haven’t used freestyle (or even know what it does), but if you post a render done with the aid of freestyle, then maybe someone can suggest how to get the same result using just Blender.

Mike

7

For some effects, Blender can help. For others (like the scribble or Japanese brush shaders)… I think it’d be very difficult without heavy work in post.

8

Yeah, Freestyle hasn’t been integrated as a renderer in Blender, but apparently that’s in the works. That will be awesome.

In the meantime, heck. Use the tools that work. If you can get things done using a 30 day demo of 3ds Max, then go for it. I kind of doubt this problem is going to drive anybody to actually buy 3ds Max… but if you’ve got deep pockets, a restrictive timeline, and a point in your pipeline that absolutely requires 3ds Max specific functionality then… you do what you gotta do.

This seems like the kind of thing that will be worked out by the next release of Freestyle and/or Blender (and soon they will be integrated, hopefully, which… did I mention will be awesome?)

9

I’m not sure about this but can you use Gmax for those file conversions? Because Gmax is free and unlimited (cranked down version of 3dsmax for the large game modding community. It uses 3ds files). You jsut dont have a renderer but you don’t need it from what I understand. Just someting to convert.

I really would go to the trouble of formating your pc for a 30 day demo though :S

10

@ Brecht!

Enable all code with “COMMENTED OUT FOR 2.42 RELEASE!! CRASHES 3DS MAX”
Thank you so much! At first I was rather skeptical as the .3ds export of loads of other programs didn’t work either (Wings3D, OpenFX, Meshlab etc) didn’t work either. So I uncommented the code and tried again. Resulting in a python crash. So I grabbed a full installation of python to use IDLE to look again. Seems I had missed some code. So I tried again - with a successful export this time.

I opened freestyle and opened the file. The screen was blank - again. As a random act of desperation, I clicked “compute viewmap”.

It didn’t crash.

Surprised I loaded a style and clicked “compute strokes”. It worked! The reason I had seen nothing was that I had exported the default cube and freestyle was looking at it top down - and it blended into the background perfectly.

Thank you. I would still be in a mess had you not seen this thread. I assumed that people interested in Freestyle would have a look at my other thread as Freestyle isn’t mentioned that often on these forums. That may has missed you, but thankfully this thread didn’t ;-).

My only question now is why did all those other OSS applications also have borked 3ds export? Does the full specification of a .3ds file crash Max? Rather strange if you ask me.

Ok…now I can respond to everyone else.

@NodeRanger

nobody’s holding a gun to your head to use blender. basically you’re pissed because nobody solved your problems for you?

::::rolls eyes:::::
One of the great things about Blender is the fantastic community both here and on the developers forum. I honestly believe Blender wouldn’t be nearly as successful without the help these forums provide.

It is not like I haven’t tried to help myself - I tried everything I could think of before making a single post here. As for a gun to my head - Blender is pretty much the only game in town when it comes to free/open CG software. Anything else (if legal) would cost lots of money and as a student, that is simply not an option. I would have had to drop my project which wouldn’t be the end of the world but would be rather disappointing nonetheless.

@Fweeb

Don’t despair!

You’re not the only one that’s hopeful to see more friendly interaction between freestyle and blender.
Thanks for the encouragement! I heard rumours about an official integration between Freestyle and Blender but I wasn’t sure of the source (Siggraph was it?). Such an integration would be great! As for project timeline, there is none set (as it is a personal project) but I really need to get as much as possible done daily.

As you said, the rest of my toolset is OSS. Thanks to Brecht, it is still that way. Perhaps once I finish, I can write a tutorial on how I did my work.

@Mike_S/Fweeb/grafix

How about rendering your movie with simple textures and doing the NPR effect post pro with some other video editing or 2D software? Would that be possible?

I haven’t used freestyle (or even know what it does), but if you post a render done with the aid of freestyle, then maybe someone can suggest how to get the same result using just Blender.

For some effects, Blender can help. For others (like the scribble or Japanese brush shaders)… I think it’d be very difficult without heavy work in post.
Most of what Freestyle does would be extremely hard to simulate in Blender or even any other program that isn’t made for NPR. Look at the site and see what I mean - it is almost impossible to tell that the images were generated from 3D models!

@Bugman

and soon they will be integrated, hopefully, which… did I mention will be awesome?
I totally agree. Along with the need nodes in the compositor, NPR rendering would put Blender way ahead in terms of certain artistic styles. I see Freestyle being implemented as a node in the compositor (it is essentially 2D output from 3D data).

@Edeehem

I’m not sure about this but can you use Gmax for those file conversions?
Gmax is no longer officially supported it seems. I considered getting Gmax before Max but it looks like Autodesk abandonned that project. Shame really. Not that I care for the damned registration process.

Part of the problem is that with OSS, you often end up with a pretty long chain of tools. Sometimes I think it is a shame that the Other Software forum is so quiet. Then again, this is a Blender forum.

Now it is time to generate a few posts on the freestyle related threads to finally help resolve the issue for others as well.

So thank you all.
I am glad that this thread got your attention or I would still be in a mess with mesh convertor version 9.0.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Especially with open source. :wink:

Koba

11

I read the PM today,I’m glad you got those issues solved:) and I take it your project is still images,not animation?

12

What you could have done is use gimp edge detection and other filters, as a simplest solution.

edit Glad you got it working. Your post title is bit whiney, though.

My only question now is why did all those other OSS applications also have borked 3ds export? Does the full specification of a .3ds file crash Max?

Can you say ‘proprietary formats’?

13

Yup. Mostly stills.

Any animation I will do will need a slightly different style. That said what is “Capture Movie” in freestyle meant to do? It crashes here but it sounds like it works on an animation of some sort.

What you could have done is use gimp edge detection and other filters, as a simplest solution.
Gimp can’t infer 3D data from a 2D image. Edge detection in Freestyle is based on polygons while edge detection in Gimp will be by pixel contrast. In freestyle, you can define your style module to work with mesh topology. You can use bezier strokes so that the lines drawn don’t even follow the polygons. Some things are possible in Gimp but not this.

Your post title is bit whiney, though.

After trying at a dozen pieces of software with no success to do something as simple as a file conversion, it’s only natural to whine a little.

As for compiling, I need to start by getting those numerous dependencies sorted.

Thank you,

Koba

14

Only the programers know what that is all about.
Good luck on your project.

15

Even though it’s open, Blender uses a proprietary format too and I bet it would be a bitch to make an importer/exporter for any other program. What’s needed is an open format for all 3D scenes but you’ve got to think about performance and whether the format will support all the features of one package without breaking compatibility with another.

Lol except for Windows, like that’s a small thing. How is your entire operating system being closed acceptable but not the software? If you use software strictly on the philosophy driving it rather than quality then you are going to have a lot of problems in the business world.

I use Blender because I prefer it to the commercial alternatives. I use Photoshop over Gimp because Gimp doesn’t do what I want. I use Flash over oh yeah, there’s no serious equivalent in OSS. I use Final Cut over oh yeah, there’s no equivalent in OSS. I use Shake over oh yeah, theres no equivalent. Use what gets the job done.

16

The .3ds file format is not a standard, the implementation in 3ds max is the specification. Maybe lib3ds is wrong, or these other OSS apps are wrong, there’s no way to know without official documentation.

17

@ osxrules

Even though it’s open, Blender uses a proprietary format too
I imagine that being able to dive into the source code that blender actually uses to read .blend files would help somewhat. If it were closed (like max) then sure - it would be rather hard.

Lol except for Windows, like that’s a small thing. How is your entire operating system being closed acceptable but not the software?
Microsoft has a bit of a monopoly with Windows (slight understatement) so it isn’t quite the same - especially with driver support. Every piece of software I am using in my work is available on linux natively. All I am saying is that Windows as an operating system with the tools I am using offers no extra functionality that linux doesn’t have for free. In fact linux is superior for work (once you get it working that is with your hardware that is). Unlike other software, I didn’t really choose Windows as it came with my PC (ok I could build my own machine but that is not the point). I also tried installing the latest ubuntu but X screws up due to my graphics card (other linux distros work though). I am running windows mainly because of games and that has nothing to do with this project. :wink:

Oh. And I shall never let Vista run on any computer of mine.

If you use software strictly on the philosophy driving it rather than quality then you are going to have a lot of problems in the business world.
Agreed. When I get paid to do CG I will be willing to spend money to get the tools I need. Currently, this is just a serious personal project as a hobby. Spending money when I can work round OSS limitations is not justified in my case. As a student that is.

@brecht

Maybe lib3ds is wrong, or these other OSS apps are wrong, there’s no way to know without official documentation.
Without source code or documentation such a format should never be the sole method of import for an OSS CG project (in my opinon).

I am testing freestyle intensively now btw so thanks again. :wink:

Koba